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Stephan55

Did TCM just air a Pan & Scan version of JUDGEMENT AT NUREMBERG (1961) ?

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I am a fan of JUDGEMENT AT NUREMBERG (1961), and though it is a long film, whenever it's on I find myself drawn to sitting down and watching it again.

 

TCM has aired it at least a couple of times a year for awhile now, and I have seen it a few of those times, but there was something alittle different about the version they showed yesterday.

 

First I noticed that the film was in Pan & Scan, and I am sure that it has been shown before in Widescreen format.

Then I noticed some unusual captioning in three places...

 

When the title showed "Judgement At Nuremberg"  there was a small caption above it reading: Vincitori E Vinti

Then, when the movie began there was a caption in English stating place and time: Nuremberg Germany 1948 (with a caption below stating: Norimbera, Germania 1948)

 

Then the movie progressed without any noticeable differences, other than No Widescreen.

 

Until the very end, when on screen in English there was the postscript caption:

The Nuremberg trials held in the American zone ended July 14, 1949.
There were ninety-nine defendants sentenced to prison terms.
Not one is still serving his sentence.

And below that the caption:

I processi di Norimberga tenutisi nella zona Americana finirono il 14 Luglio 1949.

99 imputati furono condannati A una pena detentiva. Nessuno di loro e ancora in prigione.

 

I was still not quite sure of myself, so I did a little googling to see if I could find out if this film had different release versions.

 

Wiki states a run time of 179 min (same as TCM) however IMDB has a run time posted of 186 min (same as Amazon.com).

IMDB states Aspect Ratio 1.75 : 1, Amazon advertizes their DVD at 1.66:1 Aspect Ratio, Widescreen Letterboxed, as does the most recent 2015 Kino release, and earlier 2004-2007 MGM releases.

TCM advertises a 2014 Blu-Ray version, which appears to be similar in discriptive content to the MGM 2004 Special Edition release except that version is listed with a 186 min run time

http://www.amazon.com/Judgment-at-Nuremberg-Spencer-Tracy/dp/B0002CR04A
 

http://netbusterflix.com/judgment-at-nuremberg-special-edition-dvd/

whereas the TCM advertised version is listed as "Widescreen" aspect raio and at 179 min.

http://shop.tcm.com/judgment-at-nuremberg-1961-blu-ray/detail.php?p=723413&ecid=PRF-TCM-100187&pa=PRF-TCM-100187

 

But the TCMDb Archive Materials contradicts that with a run time listed at 190 min???

http://www.tcm.com/tcmdb/title/22842/Judgment-at-Nuremberg/#

 

So why did TCM air an edited Italiano Pan & Scan screen version of JUDGEMENT AT NUREMBERG???

 

And why, if there is a longer 186 or 190 min version out there, does TCM not air it?

 

I've gone through this with other films listed with different run times.

Sometimes they are legit, sometimes not.

Sometimes one is a longer "Road Show" version, usually with additional music score in the beginning, and during an intermission/enteracte with additional end/exit music.  

 

But sadly, there are numerous television and rerelease edited & shortened versions of way too many film favorites.

 

And then, sometimes the run time differences cannot be verified as any original unedited version may no longer be available, anywhere.

 

But if there is a legitimate "longer" version of JUDGEMENT... out there, I'd like to see it.

Especially if there was actual film content, and not just music, edited out in the shorter version.

 

186-190 minutes vs a 179 minute run-time is a 7-11 minute difference, that's either a lot of missing music or content, or both.

 

And Why TCM, show us a Pan & Scan, when you've shown us the widescreen version numerous times in the past?

 

After so many TCM showings of this great film over the years, I assumed that TCM had the best version in their library.

 

However, this error means that either the TCM library also contains somewhat inferior P&S versions, or this is another case of TCM receiving whatever some vender had on the shelf with the same title, though altered content.

 

JUDGEMENT AT NUREMBERG is still a very powerfull film, in either version.

But someone who has never seen it before may believe that it was made in Pan & Scan, and may wonder about the significance of the Italian captioning?

 

I don't want to be a nit picker, because I know errors of this type are fortunetly rare with TCM, and this one is really barely noticeable, except for perhaps those who have seen this film several times.

 

But I am curious now, how this film, which most likely at one time had been edited with Italian captioning throughout, most likely for an Italian TV audience (hence the Pan & Scan), ended up back over here, in the TCM line-up, with the prior trouble taken to reedit again, and remove all of the Italian subtitles for an English listening audience, with the exception of the Title, early beginning and end postscript Italian captioning.

 

And if those listed run time differences are correct (???), I'd like to request that TCM please show us the longer version of this film, with an advance heads-up that it is the LONGER version that will be playing in their schedule.

 

And, for those who have actually read this post in it's entirety, I'd like to ask
Can any of you recall seeing a longer version than the 179 min version that TCM  airs, and if so, can you share what is missing in the shorter version?

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All I can really comment on here is the aspect ratio.  I see it was originally shot in 1.75:1, as you mentioned.  This is said to have been an early 35mm format.  Now opening the HD feed recording on a flat widescreen computer monitor, measuring it with a ruler I get 13.75" x 8.25", which is 1.66:1.  So I would say it is most likely just 1.75:1 cropped to fit the common European widescreen standard 1.66:1 *.  Too little difference for P&S I would think.

 

*  1.6667:1 (5:3)
   A common European widescreen std.; Native Super 16 mm film.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspect_ratio_%28image%29

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I am a fan of JUDGEMENT AT NUREMBERG (1961), and though it is a long film, whenever it's on I find myself drawn to sitting down and watching it again.

 

TCM has aired it at least a couple of times a year for awhile now, and I have seen it a few of those times, but there was something alittle different about the version they showed yesterday.

 

First I noticed that the film was in Pan & Scan, and I am sure that it has been shown before in Widescreen format.

Then I noticed some unusual captioning in three places...

 

When the title showed "Judgement At Nuremberg"  there was a small caption above it reading: Vincitori E Vinti

Then, when the movie began there was a caption in English stating place and time: Nuremberg Germany 1948 (with a caption below stating: Norimbera, Germania 1948)

 

Then the movie progressed without any noticeable differences, other than No Widescreen.

 

Until the very end, when on screen in English there was the postscript caption:

The Nuremberg trials held in the American zone ended July 14, 1949.

There were ninety-nine defendants sentenced to prison terms. Not one is still serving his sentence.

And below that the caption:

I processi di Norimberga tenutisi nella zona Americana finirono il 14 Luglio 1949.

99 imputati furono condannati A una pena detentiva. Nessuno di loro e ancora in prigione.

 

I was still not quite sure of myself, so I did a little googling to see if I could find out if this film had different release versions.

 

Wiki states a run time of 179 min (same as TCM) however IMDB has a run time posted of 186 min (same as Amazon.com).

IMDB states Aspect Ratio 1.75 : 1, Amazon advertizes their DVD at 1.66:1 Aspect Ratio, Widescreen Letterboxed, as does the most recent 2015 Kino release, and earlier 2004-2007 MGM releases.

TCM advertises a 2014 Blu-Ray version, which appears to be similar in discriptive content to the MGM 2004 Special Edition release except that version is listed with a 186 min run time

http://www.amazon.com/Judgment-at-Nuremberg-Spencer-Tracy/dp/B0002CR04A

 

http://netbusterflix.com/judgment-at-nuremberg-special-edition-dvd/

whereas the TCM advertised version is listed as "Widescreen" aspect raio and at 179 min.

http://shop.tcm.com/judgment-at-nuremberg-1961-blu-ray/detail.php?p=723413&ecid=PRF-TCM-100187&pa=PRF-TCM-100187

 

But the TCMDb Archive Materials contradicts that with a run time listed at 190 min???

http://www.tcm.com/tcmdb/title/22842/Judgment-at-Nuremberg/#

 

So why did TCM air an edited Italiano Pan & Scan screen version of JUDGEMENT AT NUREMBERG???

 

And why, if there is a longer 186 or 190 min version out there, does TCM not air it?

 

I've gone through this with other films listed with different run times.

Sometimes they are legit, sometimes not.

Sometimes one is a longer "Road Show" version, usually with additional music score in the beginning, and during an intermission/enteracte with additional end/exit music.  

 

But sadly, there are numerous television and rerelease edited & shortened versions of way too many film favorites.

 

And then, sometimes the run time differences cannot be verified as any original unedited version may no longer be available, anywhere.

 

But if there is a legitimate "longer" version of JUDGEMENT... out there, I'd like to see it.

Especially if there was actual film content, and not just music, edited out in the shorter version.

 

186-190 minutes vs a 179 minute run-time is a 7-11 minute difference, that's either a lot of missing music or content, or both.

 

And Why TCM, show us a Pan & Scan, when you've shown us the widescreen version numerous times in the past?

 

After so many TCM showings of this great film over the years, I assumed that TCM had the best version in their library.

 

However, this error means that either the TCM library also contains somewhat inferior P&S versions, or this is another case of TCM receiving whatever some vender had on the shelf with the same title, though altered content.

 

JUDGEMENT AT NUREMBERG is still a very powerfull film, in either version.

But someone who has never seen it before may believe that it was made in Pan & Scan, and may wonder about the significance of the Italian captioning?

 

I don't want to be a nit picker, because I know errors of this type are fortunetly rare with TCM, and this one is really barely noticeable, except for perhaps those who have seen this film several times.

 

But I am curious now, how this film, which most likely at one time had been edited with Italian captioning throughout, most likely for an Italian TV audience (hence the Pan & Scan), ended up back over here, in the TCM line-up, with the prior trouble taken to reedit again, and remove all of the Italian subtitles for an English listening audience, with the exception of the Title, early beginning and end postscript Italian captioning.

 

And if those listed run time differences are correct (???), I'd like to request that TCM please show us the longer version of this film, with an advance heads-up that it is the LONGER version that will be playing in their schedule.

 

And, for those who have actually read this post in it's entirety, I'd like to ask

Can any of you recall seeing a longer version than the 179 min version that TCM  airs, and if so, can you share what is missing in the shorter version?

their regular gorgeous print must not be back from the dry cleaners yet. :lol: hey, these are the guys who didn't even try to get the 2012 restored print of hammer studio's Dracula (1958) to truly honor horror giant the late Christopher Lee. so what to expect? superlativeness in presentation? methinks not.  :D

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FWIW At the end Ben M. said there was a 7 minute additional section that was shot "at expense" featuring Montgomery Clift.  I don't know if this is related to your question or not.  He didn't say whether or not this was included in the TCM version (which I get 179 minutes for if I trim everything else out).

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I tuned into JUDGMENT AT NUREMBERG on TCM HD for a few minutes and what I saw was a beautiful full screen version of film. Naturally this ratio would be different on TCM SD playing where the film probably looked windowboxed which to me is not pan and scan.  I am not sure about what the comments were about the film being projected pan and scan   

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I've seen Judgement at Nuremberg (1961) three times.  Two questions, both regarding films' length:

 

1.  How long was Montgomery Clift on the witness stand in the version you saw?  If answer is shorter than seven minutes, there's some of your missing time.

 

2.  Was the film within a film of the opening of one of the Death Camps included, & if so, how long was it?

 

I really can't help with the technical parts of your question, but what I've named above are the first parts that might get snipped out of Judgement at Nuremberg.

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Okay, I had to go back through some of my old posts to delete uploaded images so that I could post some screenshots of JUDGEMENT AT NUREMBERG (1961), aired yesterday afternoon (Sat. 6/27/2015) to illustrate what I am talking about.

 

See Ben Mankiewicz during intro, normal TCM full screen (No bars anywhere).

 

See screenshots of JUDGEMENT AT NUREMBERG (1961)

Note the sidebars. Ordinarily widescreen format has bars top & bottom, NOT side to side.  

Past TCM screenings had the top & bottom wide screen bars

 

Also note the captions in Italian. This has not been present in past TCM screenings of JUDGEMENT...

 

Why would they be there if not being from a print that had been edited for Italian audiences & then reedited for US audiences, albeit in Pan & Scan, or whatever NON widescreen format this is, and albeit leaving in these few Italian captions, for whatever reason.

 

I repeat, this is NOT the same version previously aired by TCM.

 

Also, at 179 min, NOT the longer 186 min or 190 min versions advertised (if accurate) .

 

MovieCollectorOH said:

FWIW At the end Ben M. said there was a 7 minute additional section that was shot "at expense" featuring Montgomery Clift. I don't know if this is related to your question or not. He didn't say whether or not this was included in the TCM version (which I get 179 minutes for if I trim everything else out).

 

I believe that Ben was refering to Montgomery Clift's actual onscreen time in the movie, which was very difficult for him to remember lines & perform, with trembling hands and all, being an alcoholic and refraining only during shoots. But received extensive encouragement from fellow alcoholic Tracy, and others he managed an Academy Award nomination for those 7 minutes.

 

So if there really is a 186 or 190 min version (as advertised) then that time would have to come from elsewhere.

 

Edit: these attached images were captured from TCM online, Not from my DVR (had to delete one to allow me to upload images in my last post)

 

1/31/2016 EDIT: Deleted images to recover upload space

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I've seen Judgement at Nuremberg (1961) three times.  Two questions, both regarding films' length:

 

1.  How long was Montgomery Clift on the witness stand in the version you saw?  If answer is shorter than seven minutes, there's some of your missing time.

 

2.  Was the film within a film of the opening of one of the Death Camps included, & if so, how long was it?

 

I really can't help with the technical parts of your question, but what I've named above are the first parts that might get snipped out of Judgement at Nuremberg.

 

This is the same 179 min length that TCM has frequently aired before (that I have seen), abeit NOT in this screen aspect ratio and NOT with Italian captions.

 

Monty's scene is apparently intact at 7 min.

 

There is a film within a film of the Nazi death camps present.

Whether a 186 or 190 min version would have had longer, perhaps even more graphic footage that was deleted for a 179 min print, don't know, as I've yet to see the 186 or 190 min versions (if they really exist), so am asking if anyone on these Boards has a copy of the longer version and can tell me/us what we are missing?

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Okay, I had to go back through some of my old posts to delete uploaded images so that I could post some screenshots of JUDGEMENT AT NUREMBERG (1961), aired yesterday afternoon (Sat. 6/27/2015) to illustrate what I am talking about.

 

See Ben Mankiewicz during intro, normal TCM full screen (No bars anywhere).

 

See screenshots of JUDGEMENT AT NUREMBERG (1961)

Note the sidebars. Ordinarily widescreen format has bars top & bottom, NOT side to side.  

Past TCM screenings had the top & bottom wide screen bars

 

Also note the captions in Italian. This has not been present in past TCM screenings of JUDGEMENT...

 

Why would they be there if not being from a print that had been edited for Italian audiences & then reedited for US audiences, albeit in Pan & Scan, or whatever NON widescreen format this is, and albeit leaving in these few Italian captions, for whatever reason.

 

I repeat, this is NOT the same version previously aired by TCM.

 

Also, at 179 min, NOT the longer 186 min or 190 min versions advertised (if accurate) .

 

MovieCollectorOH said:

FWIW At the end Ben M. said there was a 7 minute additional section that was shot "at expense" featuring Montgomery Clift. I don't know if this is related to your question or not. He didn't say whether or not this was included in the TCM version (which I get 179 minutes for if I trim everything else out).

 

I believe that Ben was refering to Montgomery Clift's actual onscreen time in the movie, which was very difficult for him to remember lines & perform, with trembling hands and all, being an alcoholic and refraining only during shoots. But received extensive encouragement from fellow alcoholic Tracy, and others he managed an Academy Award nomination for those 7 minutes.

 

So if there really is a 186 or 190 min version (as advertised) then that time would have to come from elsewhere.

 

Okay, let's think about this some more.

 

In order for a movie to cause top and bottom bars, you need for it to be wider than an HD TV (16:9 = 1.77:1).  The most common aspect ratio for American movies is 1.85:1, so most American movies cause top and bottom bars on an HD TV.  Not large ones, but they are there.

 

I have a problem though with there being a version of this movie that is wide enough to cause bars on the top and bottom of a 16:9 (1.77:1) HD TV.

 

The original film stock was only 1.75:1.

 

So the only way you could have possibly seen top and bottom bars on an HD TV in HD mode is if you had seen a "fake widescreen" version (top and bottom cropped off) - yes that is a crime and yes it has been done to movies before.

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P.S. I think I have an SD (4:3, 1.33:1, 480i) version sitting around, made before I started doing HD recordings.  It has to be from at least a couple years ago, that is when I converted over to HD.  Let me look at these things and get back.

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P.S. I think I have an SD (4:3, 1.33:1, 480i) version sitting around, made before I started doing HD recordings.  It has to be from at least a couple years ago, that is when I converted over to HD.  Let me look at these things and get back.

 

I didn't have a recording from the TCM SD feed, but had a DVD.  Here is a screen capture.  Black background, automatically adjusted to 4:3 ratio.  Notice the black bars.  This version was 3 hrs 6 min.  (MGM Special Edition, ISBN 0-7928-6182-5)  Same aspect ratio as the HD feed off TCM...

 

(Click on pictures to see actual size difference between SD and HD.  Not all older movies on TCM have this level of detail, but this is a good representation of what it can be like)

 

JUDGMENT_AT_NUREMBERG_0%20%2802%29.jpg

 

 

 

And here is what I have for the TCM HD feed screen capture.  (against a HD 16:9 background).  This is similar to yours but I uploaded it just to establish a baseline using the same software.  Again, the aspect ratios between the DVD and TCM HD feed are the same. (Don't let the backgrounds throw you off)

 

Judgment%20at%20Nuremberg%20%281961%29.j

 

The intros and outros, as you posted with Ben M., should be 16:9, since they are filmed with video cameras intended for TV production, not movie theater production.  So they should be a natural fit for consumer HD TVs.

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Okay, one last post and I think I will be done here (or out of ideas).

 

The TCM version is about 2:59:00 long.  The DVD version is about 3:06:00 long.  The DVD version has a 00:3:45 "Overture" part, and about a 00:03:30 "Exit Music" part.  So that is probably your missing 7 minutes.

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I can't really add much to the question the OP presented (other than I did notice the curious subtitles, which seemed to serve no purpose as they appeared only under the titles- y'know, just in case anyone who only spoke German was watching this, wondering what the title was, but not really caring about any of the dialogue in the film.)

 

I can say it was the first time I really sat down and watched most of the film, and I liked it very much- although I think it walks kind of a fine line between being a classic example of "Oscar Bait" and a really fine film with a message that stands on its own. I mean, it had been done on television just a few years before- so it's hard not to be a little cynical in thinking this all-star, big-screen version was done with the thoughts of little gold men dancing in someone's head.

 

Grab for awards attention or not, NUREMBERG does stand on its own quite well- with a lot of FINE performances and some complicated moral questions that aren't answered in simple or pat ways. I guess me one beef was that the film didn't spend enough time on any one character- instead giving us an ensemble of compelling characters, but I wouldn't have minded spending a little more time with each one of them- save for Maximillian Schell's irritating, over-the-top lawyer (ironically, the one performance in the film that won an Oscar- although head scratchingly in the lead category, exactly why I can't say as Schell is fifth(?) billed and is in maybe 40 minutes of the 2 hour plus movie, and his is the one performance that is not entirely successful.)

 

Every time I see Monty or Judy's scenes in this thing though, I am so moved. I'm glad they both got nommed for their parts, and (honestly) I think they both should have won, but this was in the days when it was a little contoversial for BIG STARS to appear in the supporting category- either way, the award for either would have meant a LOT MORE than it did to the winners Rita Moreno and George Chakiris- who hadn't done much before WEST SIDE STORY and whose contribution to film after winning was negligable at best.

 

Lancaster was also excellent, but again- he did not have enough scenes. I think his character was in the film even less than Schell, although his big courtroom scene was both BIG (in Lncasterian terms) yet not too big (as Burt could sometimes lay it on with a trowel.)

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Leaving out the technical issues--which other members tried to help with--the issue that's left, is, what  was cut out of the film.  I gave my input earlier in the thread.  I think Stephan55 is upset with that concern, as well as  the technical issues I stated I couldn't help with.

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This was not a film that relied on expansive, panoramic scenes, so what's the difference?

 

And even a "small, intimate" film can lose a lot of the original scope and camera movement when reduced to "Pan and Scan."

 

ie- the opening scenes of Tracy an his driver manuevering through the ruinous streets of Nuremberg, or the various reaction shots of the people in the court might have been cropped.

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There were no black bars on right or left on my HD TV.  The film filled the whole screen.  I have a brand new 55" Sony HD set. 

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There were no black bars on right or left on my HD TV.  The film filled the whole screen.  I have a brand new 55" Sony HD set. 

 

Could it be a picture setting? 

 

In general there is a framing setting on all HD TVs with these options:

 

as-is (off),

automatic (your guess is as good as mine),

frame on outer or largest dimension (letterbox or pillarbox),

frame on inner or smaller dimension (crop, no bars), or

stretch to fit (vertically or horizontally distort the picture),

and maybe some others.

 

If unexplained it could be that it might be a result of your HD TV being on the auto setting, or to a lesser extent it may have been set to the "crop" setting.  The vertical black bars are so small in this case that you may not have even noticed anything missing, if it were cropping the picture for you.

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Could it be a picture setting? 

 

In general there is a framing setting on all HD TVs with these options:

 

as-is (off),

automatic (your guess is as good as mine),

frame on outer or largest dimension (letterbox or pillarbox),

frame on inner or smaller dimension (crop, no bars), or

stretch to fit (vertically or horizontally distort the picture),

and maybe some others.

 

If unexplained it could be that it might be a result of your HD TV being on the auto setting, or to a lesser extent it may have been set to the "crop" setting.  The vertical black bars are so small in this case that you may not have even noticed anything missing, if it were cropping the picture for you.

 

It could be the case.  

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So the only way you could have possibly seen top and bottom bars on an HD TV in HD mode is if you had seen a "fake widescreen" version (top and bottom cropped off) - yes that is a crime and yes it has been done to movies before.

I think the only way to settle this is to form a tribunal headed by Spencer Tracy.

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Thank you all for your thoughts, comments and general input on the subject of this thread.

 

I really appreciate MovieCollectorOH's systematic effort to help think this through and taking time to upload his images.  

 

Of the two Spencer Tracy images he posted, the upper one with bars above and below has been the "widescreen" version that TCM typically shows when airing JUDGEMENT AT NUREMBERG.

 

The below image with bars on the sides is closer to what they presented last Saturday.

That is what I noticed first that was different.

 

Then, when the Italian captions showed up, I was certain that this was a somewhat "different" version, that I'd never seen before on a TCM airing of JUDGEMENT...

 

I'd like to reiterate that these are minor alterations that really did nothing to diminish the power or impact of the movie or it's message.

 

These are minor technical observations that prompted me to make this thread in the hope of discovering an explanation from fellow board members.  

 

Thanks to your thoughtful input, most of my curiosity has been satisfied.

 

Regarding the question of a longer, version actually existing, that is now confirmed.

Per MovieCollectorOH the MGM Special Edition version is at least 186 min.

And he confirmed that the difference in run-time length was due to musical content only, with an expanded intermission/enteracte and exit music.

So good news is that the main content of the film is NOT affected by the 179 min shorter version that TCM airs.

However, I for one enjoy the full movie experience, and if there was an intermission with music in the original release, then I would like see and listen to it on a TCM presentation.

 

Regarding the Widescreen version vs Pan & Scan, I think it is pretty clear now that Saturday's TCM presentation of the film was not a typical "Pan & Scan" edit. Though it was still NOT the same "widescreen" presentation that TCM has shown in the past.

 

I am aware of some fullscreen movies being cropped to give the impression that they are widescreen or Letterbox, when what has really occurred is a cutting off of some top & bottom content.

 

I do not believe that type of alteration is what TCM has presented in the past with this movie.

 

Using the same monitor, with same settings, there were the top & bottom widescreen bars that are apparent in MovieCollectorOH's top posted image of Spencer Tracy.

 

Although the sidebars present in the lower image are not huge, I think they were present in Saturdays TCM presentation, and not in the earlier showings of JUDGEMENT. 

 

Edit: for TCM I typically have my recorder set 4:3 ratio, in SD.

 

Again, in the case of this particular movie, this is really just a relatively minor technical issue, that does not alter the power or impact of the film.

 

I believe that the source of this alteration lies in the Italian captions.

Why were they there at all?

 

My supposition is that this version of the movie had at one time been altered for Italian audiences.

In this case the aspect ratio was also tinkered with, probably for a televised presentation in Italy.

I believe that at that time there were Italian captions throughout the entire film, just as we have our English captions throughout the movies presented on TCM's Sunday night showing of foreign films.

However, instead of remaining in Italy, this version for some inexplicable reason, was again altered for an English viewing audience, with all but those three tell-tale Italian captions removed, and of course the albeit slight aspect ratio alterations remaining.

 

The academic question still remaining for me is how did this particular altered/edited version end up in the TCM onscreen viewing library, when all of the previous TCM airings (that I have viewed) were their "wider screen" (bars above & below), un-Italian captioned, presentations, of the 179 min run time variety.

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I think the only way to settle this is to form a tribunal headed by Spencer Tracy.

 

I can hardly wait for the Dream Team to show up and Judge Ito.

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I can hardly wait for the Dream Team to show up and Judge Ito.

Well, if the image fits, you must acquit.

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[snip]

 

Of the two Spencer Tracy images he posted, the upper one with bars above and below has been the "widescreen" version that TCM typically shows when airing JUDGEMENT AT NUREMBERG.

 

No.  It is a DVD with an identical aspect ratio to what they just showed.

 

The below image with bars on the sides is what they presented last Saturday.

That is what I noticed first that was different.

 

I am aware of some fullscreen movies being cropped to give the impression that they are widescreen or Letterbox, when what has really occurred is a cutting off of some top & bottom content.

 

(clip clip clip clip)

 

I do not believe that type of alteration is what TCM has presented in the past with this movie.

 

Why not.  Do you know something I don't?

 

Using the same monitor, with same settings, there were the top & bottom widescreen bars that are apparent in MovieCollectorOH's top posted image of Spencer Tracy.

 

This is ONLY because the smaller image was superimposed over a 4:3 black background (to simulate a 4:3 CRT I suppose - sorry I have no control over that part).  I already explained that in the captions for you.  It is the background/framing that changes, NOT the aspect ratio of the movie.

 

Place that same small movie image over the 16:9 black background and enlarge it about by about 4x the area and it will almost perfectly overlap the HD picture.  Same side bars and all.

 

Edit: for TCM I typically have my recorder set 4:3 ratio, in SD.

 

This would only mean that it records and plays back in SD (480i).  Final aspect ratio is determined by the TV.

 

Again, in the case of this particular movie, this is really just a relatively minor technical issue, that does not alter the power or impact of the film.

 

I believe that the source of this alteration lies in the Italian captions.

Why were they there at all?

 

My supposition is that this version of the movie had at one time been altered for Italian audiences.

In this case the aspect ratio was also tinkered with, probably for a televised presentation in Italy.

I believe that at that time there were Italian captions throughout the entire film, just as we have our English captions throughout the movies presented on TCM's Sunday night showing of foreign films.

However, instead of remaining in Italy, this version for some inexplicable reason, was again altered for an English viewing audience, with all but those three tell-tale Italian captions removed, and of course the albeit slight aspect ratio alterations remaining.

 

The academic question still remaining for me is how did this particular altered/edited version end up in the TCM onscreen viewing library, when all of the previous TCM airings (that I have viewed) were their "wider screen" (bars above & below), un-Italian captioned, presentations, of the 179 min run time variety.

 

My thoughts:  This version is likely the very best that they could find, within their contract or within all known copies available, whichever comes first.

 

You seem to be on your way, but you seem to be getting stuck on widescreen (top/bottom bars) = always better.  Not in this case. 

 

The original film stock for THIS FILM was nearly the same aspect ratio as your HD TV. 

 

So to put this in a different way, you do not want to see any top or bottom bars on this film.  Top and bottom bars with THIS FILM = LESS PICTURE.  Period.  There is no way around this one.  ;)

 

P.S. I'm only trying this hard to explain it because you seem so determined to get to the bottom of it.  Hopefully I am more fun in other threads.

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Well, if the image fits, you must acquit.

 

Okay, what did you do with TOR?  I'm sure he could sit in for Tracy, although Tracy would get the thing done in a single take.

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