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Stephan55

Did TCM just air a Pan & Scan version of JUDGEMENT AT NUREMBERG (1961) ?

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Okay, one last post and I think I will be done here (or out of ideas).

 

The TCM version is about 2:59:00 long.  The DVD version is about 3:06:00 long.  The DVD version has a 00:3:45 "Overture" part, and about a 00:03:30 "Exit Music" part.  So that is probably your missing 7 minutes.

 

That's pretty common. When films were released in a roadshow version which included an overture and exit music that additional footage was included in the "official" running time that was put out  by the studio.

 

When films went into general release, new prints were made that didn't include an overture or such and while sometimes the studio would issue a revised running time for that version, others times they never bothered.  So even though both versions are identical, (except for the overture and exit music) different reference sources may not show  the same running time.

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Okay, what did you do with TOR?  I'm sure he could sit in for Tracy, although Tracy would get the thing done in a single take.

Ha!

I had to delete some of those pictures of Tor in the other thread to gain the available space to upload images in this thread.

 

 

"I do not believe that type of alteration is what TCM has presented in the past with this movie."

 

Why not. Do you know something I don't?

 

Well, that is my unconfirmed belief.

I will have to dig up my old 2012 TCM recording of JUDGEMENT AT NUREMBERG and compare it with your images.

 

BTW, I still have a small 9" CRT with a DVD player that I have hooked up as a monitor for recording off one HD DVR while I sometimes watch something different on another, much larger flatscreen.

 

When recording, I cannot always be sure of the native aspect ratio of the broadcast, but when I flip back and forth to the larger moniter I sometimes see quite large upper & lower bars on films that are Letterboxed, whereas some are like the images you posted.

I generally keep the monitor set at "Full" so I do not get the side bars on most of TCMs earlier films. It does slightly broaden the images, but I've gotten used to the actors having a slightly fuller appearance.

 

My thoughts: This version is likely the very best that they could find, within their contract or within all known copies available, whichever comes first.

 

That may very well be the case.

 

Since this film has been shown fairly regularly over the years, I made perhaps an erroneous assumption that it was one that TCM had in their library; not something that they had to request from an outside vendor.

So that is why I found this kind of thing with this particular movie surprising.

Perhaps not as surprizing as if they all of a sudden aired North By NorthWest in full screen, with Italian captions, but somewhat surprizng.

 

You seem to be on your way, but you seem to be getting stuck on widescreen (top/bottom bars) = always better. Not in this case. 

 

Well, there was a time when I refused to watch anything with bars of any configuration on my screen.

Then I watched those TCM letterboxing informercials, and decided that I wanted to see all there was to be seen, and if that meant investing in a larger monitor to get a bigger look at the "Letterboxed" image, so be it.

I actually prefer a full screen image, but only if I can see everything that the director intended his viewing audience to see.

 

So I'd say, if a film is supposed to be widescreen or letterboxed, then I generally expect to see some horizontal bars on my monitor.

 

However, without owning the DvD, or looking it up, I don't actually know what the native aspect ratio is.

I make a general asumption that most films from the late 1950's onward will be in some sort of wider screen format.

 

I do appreciate your elaboration. I am always open to learning new things. 

And I've learned much from reviewing your posts, thank you.

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Ha!

I had to delete some of those pictures of Tor in the other thread to gain the available space to upload images in this thread.

 

 

"I do not believe that type of alteration is what TCM has presented in the past with this movie."

 

Why not. Do you know something I don't?

 

Well, that is my unconfirmed belief.

I will have to dig up my old 2012 TCM recording of JUDGEMENT AT NUREMBERG and compare it with your images.

 

BTW, I still have a small 9" CRT with a DVD player that I have hooked up as a monitor for recording off one HD DVR while I sometimes watch something different on another, much larger flatscreen.

 

When recording, I cannot always be sure of the native aspect ratio of the broadcast, but when I flip back and forth to the larger moniter I sometimes see quite large upper & lower bars on films that are Letterboxed, whereas some are like the images you posted.

I generally keep the monitor set at "Full" so I do not get the side bars on most of TCMs earlier films. It does slightly broaden the images, but I've gotten used to the actors having a slightly fuller appearance.

 

My thoughts: This version is likely the very best that they could find, within their contract or within all known copies available, whichever comes first.

 

That may very well be the case.

 

Since this film has been shown fairly regularly over the years, I made perhaps an erroneous assumption that it was one that TCM had in their library; not something that they had to request from an outside vendor.

So that is why I found this kind of thing with this particular movie surprising.

Perhaps not as surprizing as if they all of a sudden aired North By NorthWest in full screen, with Italian captions, but somewhat surprizng.

 

You seem to be on your way, but you seem to be getting stuck on widescreen (top/bottom bars) = always better. Not in this case. 

 

Well, there was a time when I refused to watch anything with bars of any configuration on my screen.

Then I watched those TCM letterboxing informercials, and decided that I wanted to see all there was to be seen, and if that meant investing in a larger monitor to get a bigger look at the "Letterboxed" image, so be it.

I actually prefer a full screen image, but only if I can see everything that the director intended his viewing audience to see.

 

So I'd say, if a film is supposed to be widescreen or letterboxed, then I generally expect to see some horizontal bars on my monitor.

 

However, without owning the DvD, or looking it up, I don't actually know what the native aspect ratio is.

I make a general asumption that most films from the late 1950's onward will be in some sort of wider screen format.

 

I do appreciate your elaboration. I am always open to learning new things. 

And I've learned much from reviewing your posts, thank you.

 

You're welcome, and I'm glad TOR showed up.  I'd be curious to see what you come up with on your older recordings.

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Did TCM just air a Pan & Scan version of JUDGEMENT AT NUREMBERG (1961) ?

To answer my own question... YES, they DID! :angry:

 

After finalizing a copy of the TCM 6/27/2015 broadcast of JUDGEMENT AT NUREMBERG (1961), and comparing it frame-by-frame with an earlier 11/3/2012 recording of a TCM broadcast of the same movie,

I find that I must retract my earlier supposition Posted Yesterday (11/29/2015) at 09:34 PM, and sadly confirm (I believe beyond all shadow of doubt), that the Saturday, 6/27/2015 TCM broadcast of JUDGEMENT AT NUREMBERG was, in fact,  Pan & Scan. :(

 

 

The following attached images contrast the two broadcasts.

Both are the same aspect ratio. SD (4:3, 1.33:1, 480i recordings)

None of these images have been cropped or altered by me in anyway, they are just contrasting screenshots of the exact same scenes from these two seperate broadcasts.

 

Version A (11/3/2012 TCM broadcast), is obviously a widescreen version. The images visibly contain more information (and also have the horizontal black "framing" bars discussed earlier) .

Version B (6/27/2015 TCM broadcast),  is obiously a Pan & Scan version. The images are centered, as are all Pan & Scans, leaving out peripheral information.

Enlarge & examine them and see if you do not agree.

 

To paraphrase scsu1975 "If the image doesn't fit, then you must convict!" :)

 

Also, Version B contains the Italian captions, confirming my supposition that this film had been altered for a likely Italian TV viewing audience, then reedited for an English audience, and somehow made its way back to TCM for our viewing.

The Version A, widescreen version is the one that TCM has been broadcasting up until last Saturday.

I have also checked TCM recordings (with cable signal interruptions)  from 2/7/2012 & 10/29/2012, and they were both the same widescreen versions. Likewise, every one of my unrecorded viewings from before and since have also been the same TCM Widescreen broadcasts.

 

So, in this case, I'd say that Widescreen is better. :)

 

I do want to reiterate that aside from leaving out the broadscreen (Letterbox) material, that the powerful message and impact of this particular film remains intact, since most of the peripheral information is incidental, with perhaps the exception of the widescreen viewing impact of postwar devastation of Germany that was visible in an opening scene.

None-the-less, it is an altered, Pan & Scan presentation, and sadly, it was caught by the TCM viewing audience, and apparently missed by TCM's procurement and Q&A staff.

 

Although, I will give them credit that in the opening TCM viewing sequence they did NOT falsely advertise that it was going to be a letterbox presentation, so perhaps someone at TCM was aware of what they were showing before it aired.

 

In any event, unless TCM recently lost the "rights" to air the superior Widescreen "Letterbox" version that they have broadcast for several years, then (IMO) it was an error that shouldn't have occurred.

 

Also, I'd like to reiterate that TCM should do it's best to procure & broadcast the most complete, longest run-time versions of any presentation. Be it a 186 or 190 min version of JUDGEMENT... or last nights 161 min run-time broadcast of the epic HAWAII (1966), when TCM at one time aired the complete 189 minute Road Show version. If a Road Show version exists, please show it!

 

Side Note for MovieCollectorOH, I had to delete another Tor image from that other thread to be able to upload these. :(

 

Edit: Once again, though I uploaded these images in sequential order, they did not all post that way. But they are numbered and captioned.

 

1/31/2016 EDIT: Deleted images to recover upload space

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We're going out, but I'll try to find the time to look at these pics and reread your post when I am at my own computer.

 

Just a couple thoughts.

If you have a 4:3 version, where did it come from?  TCM certainly didn't air it on the HD feed.  That is a 1.66:1 picture, I measured it.

 

Now here's a quick theory and then I have to go.  They may have produced a 1.66:1 version that was sidebarred, from a previously "widescreened" release (see picture).  So the source still would have had more picture info than the widescreen you saw (sorry, I am firm on this point), but here's something new.  It looks like this might have been framed a second time (starting with the "widescreen" version you saw) for compatibility with European Cinema.  I will look at it some more later.

film%20theory%20on%20Judgement%20At%20Ne

BTW, what I have described here is not the same thing as Pan and Scan.  Framing and Pan & Scan are two different things.

 

In general, yes, widescreen is better, unless of course it wasn't filmed in widescreen.  The original film stock would not qualify as "widescreen" by your definition.  It wouldn't cause top and bottom bars on an HD monitor.  There may not be an actual release version that uses all the original film though.

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While I didn't watch the most recent airing, I know that TCM has aired JUDGEMENT AT NUREMBERG in widescreen in the past.

 

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....

Just a couple thoughts.

If you have a 4:3 version, where did it come from? TCM certainly didn't air it on the HD feed. That is a 1.66:1 picture, I measured it.

 

Now here's a quick theory and then I have to go. They may have produced a 1.66:1 version that was sidebarred, from a previously "widescreened" release (see picture). So the source still would have had more picture info than the widescreen you saw (sorry, I am firm on this point), but here's something new. It looks like this might have been framed a second time (starting with the "widescreen" version you saw) for compatibility with European Cinema. I will look at it some more later.

film%20theory%20on%20Judgement%20At%20Ne

BTW, what I have described here is not the same thing as Pan and Scan. Framing and Pan & Scan are two different things.

 

In general, yes, widescreen is better, unless of course it wasn't filmed in widescreen. The original film stock would not qualify as "widescreen" by your definition. It wouldn't cause top and bottom bars on an HD monitor. There may not be an actual release version that uses all the original film though.

 

Okay, for "clearity" sake...

I have one DVR set to record from TCM at 4:3 ratio, simply because the majority of movies that TCM broadcasts are NOT in "widescreen" or "Letterbox" format (by any definition) and a 4:3 recording ratio works well (for me).

 

So to answer your question the 4:3 aspect ratio came from my DVR setting, and the recorded DVDs which is where my most recent images were uploaded from.

 

I have 4 monitors that I use at different times for recording and viewing.

One small CRT that is connected to a DVR (set at 4:3) that is used exclusively for TCM recording.

Two Flatscreen monitors that I bought several years ago, one is a 20" that is connected to a DVR that I primarily use to record PBS broadcasts, and the second is a 32" that I use for general viewing. Neither of these monitors are HD (1080i).

But that works okay for me now, as most of my recordings are in 480i Standard Definition (SD) and practically all of my DVDs are not HiDef, and they all look fine on a 720i, 32" monitor.

 

With the exception of the CRT all of my flatscreen monitors are rectangular, but none are super widescreen.

 

And I have the option of setting my 32" Visio to either Full or Widescreen viewing, depending on the broadcast, though most often it will be in "wide" screen mode, as that has no real effect on a "Letterbox" broadcast, and only slightly broadens non-letterbox images.

 

Also, most of the programs I receive on my cable feed are still not HD, so I don't feel like I am missing anything yet.

 

I do have a relatively new and currently robust laptop with a 19" HD (1080i) monitor, and I sometimes use it to view programs on the TCM App (especially when traveling).

Because I was recording on the DVR at the time, I used the TCM App to upload the first images of the 6/27/2015 JUDGEMENT IN NUREMBERG broadcast in this thread (the ones that had the sidebars and showed the Italian captions).

 

But the most recent images that I uploaded in this thread were from DVDs transferred from the DVR and had been recorded at 4:3 SD 480i.

At that resolution and aspect ratio, they show that the earlier 11/3/2012 TCM broadcast was in a "wider" screen format, whereas the 6/27/2015 TCM broadcast was "Fullscreen."

 

Per IMDB we know that JUDGEMENT... was filmed using 35mm B&W stock, at an original aspect ratio of 1.75:1.

Also, as verified by yourself, the commercial DVD (and HD feed is at 1.66:1 Aspect Ratio), and there is a 186 min run-time version (at least in the 2004 MGM Special Edition version).

And I concur that a 1.66:1 aspect ratio does not meet the 1.78:1 (16:9) widescreen threshold and therefore does not technically qualify as "Widescreen" or "Letterbox."  

However, the impression is one of perhaps an anamorphic non-native widescreen image.  

 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0055031/technical?ref_=tt_dt_spec

 

http://www.amazon.com/Judgment-at-Nuremberg-Spencer-Tracy/dp/B0002CR04A 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anamorphic_format

 

I'm not exactly a dunce here, when it comes to aspect ratios, but because there are so many variables I think it is difficult to find common ground when discussing them in relation to Widescreen, Letterbox, Fullscreen, Pan & Scan, etc.

 

So to compare apples with apples (with SD 480i, 4:3 ratio recordings), the unaltered uploaded A images illustrate a "wider" screen format (with black bars visible above and below) and the B images illustrate a Fullscreen format.

But what's more, is when you examine the A vs B images it is clear that the B images contain less data. They are either Pan & Scan (center "action" focused) or Center Cut, having much the same effect, with peripheral data not being seen on the screen.

 

One can do a lot of reading on the subject and still be somewhat confused:

 

http://wichm.home.xs4all.nl/filmsize.html

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspect_ratio_(image)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letterboxing_(filming)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_and_scan

 

http://www.davidbordwell.net/blog/2015/01/25/filling-the-box-the-never-ending-pan-scan-story/

 

http://www.audioholics.com/hdtv-formats/understanding-widescreen-letterboxed-and-pan-scan

 

And even more so when some of the TV monitor variables are considered:

 

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/tv-buying-guide,review-1943.html

 

The primary point of this thread was to determine whether or not the recent JUDGEMENT... TCM broadcast was different from the earlier TCM broadcasts, in that this one was NOT in the same "widescreen" format of the earlier showings, and appeared to be Pan & Scan.

Hopefully the uploaded contrasting images confirm that supposition.

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Ok, nothing personal but this topic is giving me a headache.  I was getting the cold sweats just thinking about it while I was with the family.  So I really think this should be my last post on this topic.

 

Just a couple more thoughts before I sign off for good on this thread:

 

The 4:3 images don't really do anything for me.  I don't have a real point of reference to work with.

 

As per Anamorphic, the answer is no.  Since you looked, you should have seen that they used "spherical" lenses.

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P.S. I think I have an SD (4:3, 1.33:1, 480i) version sitting around, made before I started doing HD recordings. It has to be from at least a couple years ago, that is when I converted over to HD. Let me look at these things and get back.

 

I said: "I will have to dig up my old 2012 TCM recording of JUDGEMENT AT NUREMBERG and compare it with your images."

.... I'd be curious to see what you come up with on your older recordings.

 

Okay, you were looking for yours, and I found and uploaded mine (same thing as your old recordings).

You asked me to and I thought it would be helpful.

 

The 4:3 images don't really do anything for me. I don't have a real point of reference to work with.

 

Too bad, I was hoping they would be helpful.

 

Just a couple more thoughts before I sign off for good on this thread:

 

As per Anamorphic, the answer is no. Since you looked, you should have seen that they used "spherical" lenses.

Yes, I looked.

I wrote: "However, the impression is one of perhaps an anamorphic non-native widescreen image."

 

I was brainstorming. That was an impression (a thought, perhaps similar to, ...) ;)

 

There are both lenses used to film with and lenses used to project an image with, sometimes they are not the same.

Also (as you know) an image of one type can be artificially "converted" to look similar to another type, either digitally or the old fashioned way.

 

Since we are evidently dealing with (1) an oft repeated Broadcast that gives the "impression" of being in a "wide screen" format, and (2) an adulterated "Fullscreen" Pan & Scan or Center cut broadcast that was modified for Italian audiances, and then remodified for an English audiance.

 

Anamorphic format is the cinematography technique of shooting a widescreen picture on standard 35 mm film or other visual recording media with a non-widescreen native aspect ratio. It also refers to the projection format in which a distorted image is "stretched" by an anamorphic projection lens to recreate the original aspect ratio on the viewing screen. (It should not be confused with anamorphic widescreen, a different video encoding concept that uses similar principles but different means.) The word "anamorphic" and its derivatives stem from the Greek words meaning formed again. As a camera format, anamorphic format is losing popularity in comparison to "flat" (or "spherical") formats such as Super 35 mm film shot using spherical lenses; however, because most movie projectors use anamorphic projection format, spherical format negatives are commonly converted into anamorphic prints for projection.

 

The anamorphic lens on the projector is a specially crafted convex lens that corrects the picture so that the images on the screen look normal. The optical scaling of the lens to a film medium is considered more desirable than the digital counterpart, due to the amount of non-proportional pixel decimated scaling that is applied to the width of an image to achieve (something of a misnomer) a so-called "rectangular" pixel widescreen image. The legacy ITU Rec. 601 4:3 image size is used for its compatibility with the original video bandwidth that was available for professional video devices that used fixed clock rates of a SMPTE 259M serial digital interface. One would produce a higher-quality upscaled 16:9 widescreen image by using either a 1:1 SD progressive frame size of 640×360 or for ITU Rec. 601 and SMPTE 259M compatibility a letterboxed frame size of 480i or 576i. ...

 

 

Just a couple more thoughts before I sign off for good on this thread:

I agree, I think that the thread has run it's useful course, and though I/we may never know the exact particulars of how or why, I believe that there is enough evidence to support my initial supposition.

 

Ok, nothing personal but this topic is giving me a headache. I was getting the cold sweats just thinking about it while I was with the family.

So I really think this should be my last post on this topic.

Sorry about that.

Thanks for all your help. :)

Goodbye.

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I wonder where TCM got the print with the Italian subtitles? 

 

It looks like a print off of Youtube someone added captions to.

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I wonder where TCM got the print with the Italian subtitles? 

My guess would be Italy.

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The version of JUDGEMENT OF NUREMBERG that TCM aired yesterday (August 22) as part of Marlene Dietrich's Summer Under The Stars day was the widescreen version --- even though it's not noted as such on the TCM schedule. 

 

I didn't watch the entire movie, but I turned it on at one point while I was awaitng a guest to arrive and was pulled in as usual.  

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I didn't watch the entire movie, but I turned it on at one point while I was awaitng a guest to arrive and was pulled in as usual.  

 

Bomp-chicka-wow wow...chicka-chicka-chicka...Bomp-chicka-wow wow...

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The version of JUDGEMENT OF NUREMBERG that TCM aired yesterday (August 22) as part of Marlene Dietrich's Summer Under The Stars day was the widescreen version --- even though it's not noted as such on the TCM schedule. 

 

I didn't watch the entire movie, but I turned it on at one point while I was awaitng a guest to arrive and was pulled in as usual.  

Pulled in so much that when the guest finally did arrive, you unceremoniously got rid of the person

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It looks like a print off of Youtube someone added captions to.

better procuring thru economics. :)

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