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Eddie Mueller, Noir Host


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Dick Clark was never a friend to black artists, unless it contributed to his aggrandizement in some way. And though he did have black performers with hit records on his show as it would have been professional suicide not to, since his white teen market was buying such records, Dick allowed Bandstand to keep out black teenagers from his tv shows. Later when Don Cornelius showed through Soul Train that there was a market for predominantly black dance shows it was then that Clark tried to undermine Cornelius by ripping off the concept and having a similar Bandstand offshoot. Alan Freed in contrast, had always promoted black artists and supported integration at all his shows since his earliest stint on radio in 1951.Clark used r'n'r for his own purposes, whereas Freed loved the music and coined the term rock and roll.The irony of the House Oversight Committee which ostensibly wanted to stop payola was that they castigated and charged Alan Freed who was not a bigwheel operator on getting kickbacks like Clark, and set the oldest teenager free since he knew how to work the committee and was seen as more wholesome than Freed who by associating with black artists and prmoting equality was frowned upon and died a broken man. Thanks Ms. Cavegirl for setting the record straight on Clark.

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Am I imagining it or is there an anti-intellectual bias at this message board wherein those who back up their comments with knowledge of a topic are relegated to the back in favor of those who speak without facts but in a more pleasing way. I would hope this is not the case. If so I probably would not enjoy being here and will not be missed either.

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Am I imagining it or is there an anti-intellectual bias at this message board wherein those who back up their comments with knowledge of a topic are relegated to the back in favor of those who speak without facts but in a more pleasing way. I would hope this is not the case. If so I probably would not enjoy being here and will not be missed either.

It's more like a reaction to pompous blowhards rather than an anti-intellectual one, which category do you fit in?

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Am I imagining it or is there an anti-intellectual bias at this message board wherein those who back up their comments with knowledge of a topic are relegated to the back in favor of those who speak without facts but in a more pleasing way. I would hope this is not the case. If so I probably would not enjoy being here and will not be missed either.

 

No, there is no anti-intellectual bias at this message board. And backing up one's comments with knowledge is fine. In fact, there is often quite a lot of discussion on these boards where people share knowledge and interesting /useful information about film ( and other things.)

There IS , perhaps, an anti-rudeness bias. That is, people - not only on these boards but I imagine on all social websites- don't enjoy being insulted or told they're "lazy" and lacking in intelligence (this not directly, but in so many words, for sure) simply because they disagree with one poster's opinion.

 

edit: My arguments in favour of Mr. Muller and his stint on the Friday TCM noir evenings were not intended to be either intellectual or anti-intellectual. They were merely my personal "take" on how I feel Eddie Muller did. 

And I will reiterate that, while I have as much - and I suspect, more - knowledge about film noir, its origins and its recognition by French film critics as a style, etc. etc. than many more recent noir fans, that does not mean that I look down on those who know a bit less about it than  I do.

 

There's no question that film is an art form as well as entertainment. That is why film studies is on the curriculum of many universities. That's as it should be. I've taken several film courses myself. 

 

But let's not forget that people also watch movies, including noir movies, for fun. For enjoyment. Shirley we can have a bit of both, the "intellectual" aspect to a discussion, and the "fun" side of it, without insulting one another.

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Am I imagining it or is there an anti-intellectual bias at this message board wherein those who back up their comments with knowledge of a topic are relegated to the back in favor of those who speak without facts but in a more pleasing way. I would hope this is not the case. If so I probably would not enjoy being here and will not be missed either.

Nooooooooooooooo, wherever did you get that idea? ;)

 

Good observation and spot on, Gordon.

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Here's what I saw, Miss Wonderly, an assertion was made about Dick Clark being a friend to black artists which was basically erroneous if one knows the history of rock and roll, which was corrected with facts by Ms. Cavegirl who was then assailed by many with snide comments apparently disregarding the fact that she obviously was well-versed in the subject. I will guess but could be wrong, that her comment about being "lazy" was again directed at the few who kept questioning the issue of Muller's real name instead of just looking it up themselves. I did just now and on the net there is reference to his dad being named Edward Vujkovich so that should solve that. All in all, many tempests in teapots all due to a woman who is knowledgeable and not afraid to buck the tide and some don't seem to approve of that. Due to the fact that I appreciate intelligent women I applaud both her posts and yours, MissWonderly. I must say I saw nothing rude in her posts though, and actually think you both write in similar styles with a hint of sarcasm. I have a feeling Ms.Cavegirl though can take care of herself and does not need my defense. I for one would not want a person of her film knowledge to depart from any board I was on if they want to be considered of any worth. And I still say that both she and you would make great point/counterpoint noir hosts for TCM in place of Muller, MissWonderly. Thin skin does not make for knowledge exchanges always if people can't accept being wrong occasionally and take offense when someone calls them on it. I have a feeling if she were a man her posts would not be taken as being rude at all.

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Here's what I saw, Miss Wonderly, an assertion was made about Dick Clark being a friend to black artists which was basically erroneous if one knows the history of rock and roll, which was corrected with facts by Ms. Cavegirl who was then assailed by many with snide comments apparently disregarding the fact that she obviously was well-versed in the subject. I will guess but could be wrong, that her comment about being "lazy" was again directed at the few who kept questioning the issue of Muller's real name instead of just looking it up themselves. I did just now and on the net there is reference to his dad being named Edward Vujkovich so that should solve that. All in all, many tempests in teapots all due to a woman who is knowledgeable and not afraid to buck the tide and some don't seem to approve of that. Due to the fact that I appreciate intelligent women I applaud both her posts and yours, MissWonderly. I must say I saw nothing rude in her posts though, and actually think you both write in similar styles with a hint of sarcasm. I have a feeling Ms.Cavegirl though can take care of herself and does not need my defense. I for one would not want a person of her film knowledge to depart from any board I was on if they want to be considered of any worth. And I still say that both she and you would make great point/counterpoint noir hosts for TCM in place of Muller, MissWonderly. Thin skin does not make for knowledge exchanges always if people can't accept being wrong occasionally and take offense when someone calls them on it. I have a feeling if she were a man her posts would not be taken as being rude at all.

Stick around. You ain't seen nuthin' yet.

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Here's what I saw, Miss Wonderly, an assertion was made about Dick Clark being a friend to black artists which was basically erroneous if one knows the history of rock and roll, which was corrected with facts by Ms. Cavegirl who was then assailed by many with snide comments apparently disregarding the fact that she obviously was well-versed in the subject. I will guess but could be wrong, that her comment about being "lazy" was again directed at the few who kept questioning the issue of Muller's real name instead of just looking it up themselves. I did just now and on the net there is reference to his dad being named Edward Vujkovich so that should solve that. All in all, many tempests in teapots all due to a woman who is knowledgeable and not afraid to buck the tide and some don't seem to approve of that. Due to the fact that I appreciate intelligent women I applaud both her posts and yours, MissWonderly. I must say I saw nothing rude in her posts though, and actually think you both write in similar styles with a hint of sarcasm. I have a feeling Ms.Cavegirl though can take care of herself and does not need my defense. I for one would not want a person of her film knowledge to depart from any board I was on if they want to be considered of any worth. And I still say that both she and you would make great point/counterpoint noir hosts for TCM in place of Muller, MissWonderly. Thin skin does not make for knowledge exchanges always if people can't accept being wrong occasionally and take offense when someone calls them on it. I have a feeling if she were a man her posts would not be taken as being rude at all.

 

Mr. Cole;

As I said in an earlier post to you, I appreciate your writing style and hope you stick around. That has not changed.

 

My recent responses here, both the admittedly sarcastic one to CaveGirl and the more respectful one to you, were not about rock n roll music or Alan Freed or Dick Clark, all of which is fascinating, so much so that it all really deserves a thread of its own.

 

I was simply addressing what I felt to be a highly condescending post by CaveGirl, in which she clearly stated that she felt that those who'd commented on this thread in defense of Eddie Muller were intellectually lazy. And not "lazy" merely because they did not take the time to look up the actual name of Mr.Muller, but lazy in their thinking, in being content with a host on TCM who did not go into more depth in his talk about  the film noir movies he was introducing.

 

My point was simply to let C.G. know that her undeniable sense of superiority over those who accepted and even enjoyed Muller's stint as TCM noir host was unwarranted and unappreciated - in a word, insulting.

 

As for the origins of Eddie Muller's actual name, it's just of little interest to me, and thus I guess I was too "lazy" to look it up.

 

I do appreciate CaveGirl's enthusiasm; I just wish she'd curtail her apparent need to denigrate posters here who don't agree with her.

By the way, I don't have a problem with your posts  (Except maybe for the block text thing, but that could just be my eyesight deteriorating....)

 

ps:  I definitely would have responded to CaveGirl's attitude here exactly the same way, had she been male. (Or perceived as male...of course we don't really know the gender of anyone who posts here, regardless of their screen name...)

Being a woman myself, I feel it goes without saying that I accord at least as much respect and attention to female posters as male ones.

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Dear MissWonderly, far be it from me to try to psychically know what a woman is thinking but I as a man I did not take her comment about being "lazy" as having anything to do with being intellectually lazy but it was purely about being physically too "lazy" to check something out oneself so that remark did not even refer to you as you had not posted about his name anyway. Perhaps this is the difference between the way men think and women think. I saw no such intent of insult in her statement, in fact she seems to have a good sense of humor and has not even reacted to all the nasty slams directed at her with some of the same. I also tend to agree with her assessment of Muller and feel she is perhaps wanting a host with more street cred about films. A fair assessment if one has ever attended one of his movie fests seemingly. She made a stand with rational narrative points and it seemed that those who did not agree with her got into namecalling and cracks about hoping she stayed in her cave and whatnot. I did not see her doing the same back so it may be a moot point about who is actually rude here. I think you two ladies would be good friends if you would just give it a try. I like her arch wit and yours too. Intelligent folk often ruffle the feathers of others just by the lofty words they use but whose fault is that. Should one be embarrassed for being well read with a great vocabulary as she is. I bet if you two actually were talking in person you would like each other. I did not see her anywhere address any insults to you though your posts disagreed with hers. Sorry for the extended paragraph.

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You have a degree in French, but you are not fluent in French? Is the degree from a correspondence school?

 

You don't gain fluency by going to school and getting a degree. Gaining fluency represents an extremely high bar. You want fluency? Go live in France for 10 or 15 years. That would be worth more than a hundred degrees. And even if you don't get around to doing that until you're an adult, you may gain fluency to a degree but you will not be bi-lingual, which is even a higher bar than than fluency. Bi-lingual refers to those who grew up with one or more languages and equally adept in all of them. These are the folks who are best able to make correct translations.

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You don't gain fluency by going to school and getting a degree. Gaining fluency represents an extremely high bar. You want fluency? Go live in France for 10 or 15 years. That would be worth more than a hundred degrees. And even if you don't get around to doing that until you're an adult, you may gain fluency to a degree but you will not be bi-lingual, which is even a higher bar than than fluency. Bi-lingual refers to those who grew up with one or more languages and equally adept in all of them. These are the folks who are best able to make correct translations.

 

Your absolutely write hear, laffite!!!

 

(...guess I might still be havin' a little trouble with MY first language, huh!) ;)

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Dick Clark was never a friend to black artists, unless it contributed to his aggrandizement in some way. And though he did have black performers with hit records on his show as it would have been professional suicide not to, since his white teen market was buying such records, Dick allowed Bandstand to keep out black teenagers from his tv shows. Later when Don Cornelius showed through Soul Train that there was a market for predominantly black dance shows it was then that Clark tried to undermine Cornelius by ripping off the concept and having a similar Bandstand offshoot. Alan Freed in contrast, had always promoted black artists and supported integration at all his shows since his earliest stint on radio in 1951.Clark used r'n'r for his own purposes, whereas Freed loved the music and coined the term rock and roll.The irony of the House Oversight Committee which ostensibly wanted to stop payola was that they castigated and charged Alan Freed who was not a bigwheel operator on getting kickbacks like Clark, and set the oldest teenager free since he knew how to work the committee and was seen as more wholesome than Freed who by associating with black artists and prmoting equality was frowned upon and died a broken man. Thanks Ms. Cavegirl for setting the record straight on Clark.

In your first sentence, you are basically agreeing with me. I stated in essence that, no matter what his motives, Clark ended up advancing rock and roll and improving the lot of black artists. His intention may have been to line his own pockets. I am just talking about the results.

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This thread has inspired me to dust off my copies of Dark City and Dark City Dames.  They are worth another read.  It's a pleasure to read something well written and researched, and a bonus when the author has such obvious zest for the topic.  He lives the topic!


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This thread has inspired me to dust off my copies of Dark City and Dark City Dames.  They are worth another read.  It's a pleasure to read something well written and researched, and a bonus when the author has such obvious zest for the topic.  He lives the topic!

 

 

I'm especially interested in reading his interview with Jane Greer.

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As a "Philly lightweight" myself, maybe I am biased. I am not underestimating Alan Freed's contributions. But Clark, who had a lot of say about who appeared on Bandstand, booked a lot of black artists on the show. Clark also, I  believe, did not have an ownership interest in any particular label. Philly labels such as Chancellor and Cameo-Parkway were owned by others, and DID produce many great songs in the period 1958-1964.

Pretty obvious ya didn't check this one above.

 

“At the hearings of House Committee on Legislative Oversight—the congressional subcommittee investigating payola, Dick Clark would testify to holding an ownership stake in a total of 33 different record labels, distributors and manufacturers that all profited handsomely from the rise of Clark-anointed stars like Danny and the Juniors and Frankie Avalon. One of the companies in which Clark had a financial interest was Jamie Records, the label that made Duane Eddy.”

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Pretty obvious ya didn't check this one above.

 

“At the hearings of House Committee on Legislative Oversight—the congressional subcommittee investigating payola, Dick Clark would testify to holding an ownership stake in a total of 33 different record labels, distributors and manufacturers that all profited handsomely from the rise of Clark-anointed stars like Danny and the Juniors and Frankie Avalon. One of the companies in which Clark had a financial interest was Jamie Records, the label that made Duane Eddy.”

If he had an interest in THAT many, he'd be hard-pressed to book ANYONE on Bandstand that was not affiliated with a company of which he had an ownership interest. Clark never got in trouble for payola. Alan Freed DID.

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If he had an interest in THAT many, he'd be hard-pressed to book ANYONE on Bandstand that was not affiliated with a company of which he had an ownership interest. Clark never got in trouble for payola. Alan Freed DID.

 

Well, Freed was a huge drunk. When your liquor bill is as high as his, payola helps to defray the expense, ay.

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Well, Freed was a huge drunk. When your liquor bill is as high as his, payola helps to defray the expense, ay.

The Rock and roll hall of fame is in Cleveland. The major reason Cleveland was selected is that that was the home base of Freed. So, obviously, Freed is considered more important as a rock pioneer than Clark, but don't shortchange Clark.

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Quiz time!

What is considered to be the first rock and roll record ever recorded, Frazier?

Clue, it is from 1953 as mostly played but was first recorded in 1951 I think.

 

If you don't get it, don't feel bad as even Lester Bangs didn't know it at one time.

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Quiz time!

 

What is considered to be the first rock and roll record ever recorded, Frazier?

 

Clue, it is from 1953 as mostly played but was first recorded in 1951 I think.

 

If you don't get it, don't feel bad as even Lester Bangs didn't know it at one time.

There are various records mentioned--"Sh-Boom, by the Chords, "Gee", by the Crows, "Shake, Rattle and Roll", by Joe Turner are 3 of them. Also one by Billy Ward and the Dominoes. 

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Well, Freed was a huge drunk. When your liquor bill is as high as his, payola helps to defray the expense, ay.

DB,

 

If Freed were here he could use the line of Fields " Yeah and you're crazy but in the morning I'll be sober and you'll be crazy for the rest of your life."

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There are various records mentioned--"Sh-Boom, by the Chords, "Gee", by the Crows, "Shake, Rattle and Roll", by Joe Turner are 3 of them. Also one by Billy Ward and the Dominoes. 

I thought of the title of the Billy Ward and the Dominoes song. It's "Sixty Minute Man" (and it's filthy)

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I thought of the title of the Billy Ward and the Dominoes song. It's "Sixty Minute Man" (and it's filthy)

 

Hey DGF! You're a big Philly doowop(can't put the hyphen in here due evidently to the autocensor around here worried about some potential complains coming from the Italian-American Anti-Defamation League) aficionado, ain't YA?!

 

Well, in THAT case, then you're probably familiar with your fellow Philly homeboys, The Turbans, and their recording of "When You Dance" from 1955 often being described as the first doowop song ever recorded...

 

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Hey DGF! You're a big Philly doowop(can't put the hyphen in here due evidently to the autocensor around here worried about some potential complains coming from the Italian-American Anti-Defamation League) aficionado, ain't YA?!

 

Well, in THAT case, then you're probably familiar with your fellow Philly homeboys, The Turbans, and their recording of "When You Dance" from 1955 often being described as the first doowop song ever recorded...

 

Not true. There were many doo-w o ps before that. The monicker "doo-w o p" came from its USAGE for the first time in "When You Dance".

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