albatros1 Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 What's with the Japanese animation movies? What's that got to do with "Classic Movies"? Turner is gone and the kids have taken over. Another night of not watching TCM. They program that stuff and we can't get a Jack Webb night!!!! Go figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayresorchids Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 I grew up watching "Speed Racer," but I can't say I've ever been a fan of the anime style. Compared to the Warners' or Disney's animation, it's primitive and simplistic. We've all had the argument about "classic" before, and I'm one of the curmudgeons who would rather TCM stuck with the pre-1970 stuff, regardless of the fact that there are many classics from after those years (and classics being produced today). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BereanMan Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 SciFi Channel, Cartoon Network, Spike TV, and now Turner Classic Movies! C'mon guys. At it's very BEST this stuff is amateurish-looking garbage and at it's worst it borders dangerously close to child-pornography. Either way, it definately has no place on TCM. BereanMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredCDobbs Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 This Japanese animation is running at about 6 cells per second (6 painting changes), while the classic Disney and Warner Brother cartoons ran at about 12 cells per second. Looks to me like these Japanese cells are photographed 4 times before a cell change, while the Disney and Warner Brothers cells were photographed only twice. That is why this Japanese animation seems so jerky when compared to the old classic cartoons. All the motion seems to go like jump, jump, jump, jump, instead of a smooth flow of action. Also notice they take a lot of advantage of all characters being frozen stiff for long periods of time, while only their mouths move a little. That saves money but it doesn?t make for a quality cartoon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RK Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 I was under the impression Ghibli and Disney both used 30fps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lzcutter Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Fred, Are you speaking specifically of the Miyazki films? I've not seen the jerkiness and other elements you wrote about in his specific films. His remind me a great deal of the animation of Disney in the old days. Other Japanese anime does have the very elements you wrote about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RK Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 And so do American cartoons. I don't have to bring up Hanna Barbera, do I? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredCDobbs Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 The couple of Anime films I have seen recently on TCM were jerky, about 6 cells per second. 30 fps is the electronic TV and video tape format. 24 fps is the sound film format since about 1929. Some old movies were dubbed to video tape using older projector machines, and the video tape recorded double exposures every few frames. That?s because 24 fps is incompatible with 30 fps. You can see the double exposures of the movie frames by playing back an old movie on your VCR at a very slow speed and watch a double-exposed frame come up every few frames. That?s due to the incompatibility of the old sound movie speed and the TV frame rate. But I?ve seen some modern film-to-video dubs that show 3 movie frames in a sequence, one time each, and every 4th frame is copied twice, to make up 30 fps. This method results in a clearer image, with no double-exposed movie frames on the video tape. I guess they have new film-to-tape projection machines that do this automatically. Anyone can record Anime on video tape at home, then play it back at the slow video speed, about 1 video frame per second, and you can usually see how many movie frames are made of each cell (each painting). The ones with the jerky motion are usually about 6 cells per second or less. With a big screen TV, you can often see the movie frames change by watching the grain pattern of the film change, and you can count the number of film frames for each cell. Silent films in the 1920s ran at about 16 fps. That?s why everyone seems to move fast in them when they are played back at the sound speed of 24 fps. Some of the earliest 20th Century silent films ran at 8 or 12 fps, so their motion today is faster when shown at the sound speed of 24 fps, unless they have been optically printed with each frame being copied three times to sound film. Normally, the standard silent films of the 1920s DID NOT show people moving fast, because the silent cameras ran at 16 frames per second and so did the movie projectors. The only exceptions were some of the comedies where the cameramen purposely ?under cranked? the cameras at a slower speed, so the motion would appear fast when played back in the theater at 16 fps. The reason most of the old silent films were not converted from 16 to 24 fps was because that required a special ?optical? printer and much more time to make the copy. They could make a conversion copy by printing every other film frame twice, but the cost of the print is expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredCDobbs Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Hanna Barbera started this trend in the ?60s and ?70s and ruined modern cartoons forever. But go count the cells on an old Disney, Warner Brothers, and MGM cartoon. At least 12 cells per second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RK Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Assuming the cel count was constant... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RK Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 Ah. I got my animator cousin's opinion. He says you were probably watching a slower section of the film where the cel count was lower. Fast motion action scenes for features generally run in the 18-24 cels per second range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredCDobbs Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 The most noticeable jerkiness in anime cartoons is when people are walking or fighting. That?s when 6 cells per second shows up the most. But the most irritating parts are when the characters are frozen in place for many seconds and only one or two of their lips move. That is one main cell for 5-10 seconds, with a few sub-cells of just the lips wiggling. Sometimes they save even more money by having one of the stationary speaking characters with his back to the camera so they don?t even have to animate his lips. So I can?t enjoy the Japanese cartoons because they look cheap and low-budget, like a 1950s Japanese sci-fi movie, with a man in a Godzilla suit stomping on awful plastic model cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredCDobbs Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 ?Ah. I got my animator cousin's opinion.? Yeah, and I?ll bet he graduated from one of our universities and wears Harold Lloyd type glasses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RK Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 Nope. One of theirs. And he's got contacts. Good grief, man. What have you been watching? You can't seriously be trying to put down all of anime on the basis of a few badly dubbed episodes of Pokemon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredCDobbs Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 Ok, ok, I just watched the last half-hour of ?My Neighbor Totoro,? and it was cute. Jerky motion, but a cute cartoon. I?ve just re-calculated the cells-per-second number to be 8 cells per second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RK Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 Cels. If you're going to argue technical points, at least use the right bloody terminology. God I hate Michale Keaton trying to play Porco. What I wouldn't give for the Jean Reno French dub... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredCDobbs Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 Either one can be used. It?s an abbreviation for ?Celluloid?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sashiro Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 Oh great, another person who knows nothing of anime but still atempts to judge it. Miyazaki is considered a master in his field, many disney animators credit him as their inspiration. Most of Miyazaki's works were done completely by hand. Let that soak in. Hundreds of thousands of cels. Anime is not a children thing. You seem to be under the impression that the only anime is pokemon and dragonball Z. How very wrong you are... I believe Miyazaki also did Grave of the Fireflies. It's a war movie. In fact, Roger Ebert even said "it belongs on any list of the greatest war films ever made." He also reviewed My Neighbor Totoro, and said it one one of the best family films ever made. But, if you'd like to say anime is for kids - do a little research. For instance, the few animes I am watching/following right now: Honey & Clover, Monster, and Serial Experiments Lain. Honey & Clover isn't licensed in the USA yet, but I'd imagine it'd be rated 16... Monster would be at least 16, and SEL is licensed and is 16+. Oh, and I saw a movie called Akira a while back, it is rated R. There is always something to be appriciated in anime, and it takes skill to make. Each artist has his own style. For instance, I could tell if Yotoshi ABe was the artist, because he has a very distinct style (ala Serial Experiments Lain, and my favorite, Haibane Renmei). Then there comes the soundtrack. Haibane Renmei, for instance, has amazingly beautiful music composed for this series by a very talented composer, Kou Otani. Well, my whole point is that anime is not just for kids. In fact, the majority is not. Seeing as all you have seen is one kids movie that, I believe, was hand-drawn, please don't judge every single anime. Edit: Oh, and for God's sakes...Dubs are *AWEFUL*. I only watch subbed, because the english dubs are often not very accurate in their translations, because Disney does the horrible "dub-to-fit". They're notorious for having crappy dubs, and actually, the disney subs usually kinda suck too. But they're still better than dubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RK Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 Oh, the dubs aren't all bad. Disney dumbs them doen a little, but at least they aren't hacked up or rewritten the way the older releases were. "Princess Mononoke" was quite good, aside from the odd minor character. "Grave of the Fireflies" was directed by Ghibli's Isao Takahata. I don't believe Miyazaki had any input on that one, but it you're right. It's a very strong contender for the best animated film ever made in my book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sashiro Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 Actually, you're right about GotF. But pretty much everything that comes out of Ghibi is pure gold. But I can't stand dubs! And yeah, Disney dumbs them down and, I guess, tries to make them more kid-friendly. It really makes you want to hunt down some fansubs, because they're more accurate! ..And I just noticed...their dates are wrong. They said Totoro was made in 1993...It sure as heck isn't! It's obvious when you look at the animation. It was made in 1988...Miyazaki/Ghibli made quite a few films in the 80's (Nausicaa, Castle in the Sky, Kiki's Delivery Service...). I guess they're talking about when it was licensed...but it took 5 years to be licensed? Their more recent works (Like Howl's Moving Castle) is much more detailed and fluid, because it is done on a computer instead of all by hand like Totoro and such earlier works. On a side note, RK, have you seen My Neighbors the Yamadas? Takahata-san (or as some might say, Takahata-sama! ;P) made it, I believe. It's absolutely hillarious. EDIT: Aww, crap...I'm watching Totoro right now, and I already see bad subs... You'd think such a huge company as Disney could do more accurate subs! (For those who didn't know, Disney licensed Totoro...and almost all Ghibli movies) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrRoboto Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 It has everything to do with Classic movies my close minded friend. There are other countries out there you know, this is a big world. These films are classics in the country they come from- Japan. These films, regardless of their nature of animation ( which I happen to enjoy), are absoulutley fantastic for their stories, characters, and sense of imagination. What defines a classic is not the actors in it, or its country of orgion, but its ability to stand the test of time. These films, if you truly look at them, truly watch them, you will find that thay are more than they appear. These films are not for kids, they are for people with imagination, for people with heart, for people who understand that there is more to films than hollywood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody0023 Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 Didn't this thread start because true TCM fans were wondering why there were anime cartoons on their favorite channel? TCM is not selling anime to its long-time loyal fans; it is selling its usual fare to the younger generation that typically makes up the fanbase of anime. For god's sake TCM, please don't sell out, please don't destroy this channel by showing anything and everything. Stay true to your roots! If people want recent classics, they can find them on dozens of other channels. If anime fans want to watch anime, let them find it somewhere else. If it's such a lucrative market, why not start an anime channel? You can use its revenues to support TCM, the (once) greatest channel in the history of television! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sashiro Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 Did it ever occur to you that they aren't "selling out", but instead saluting a great artist and director? Oh, and what do you define as "younger"? Most real anime fans I know are between 17 and 30. I know a few who are 40+ and are married/have families. Spirited Away, for instance, won and oscar here in the USA, and is the Top grossing film ever in Japan. Many of these movies are considered masterpieces by anime fans and non-fans alike...but then there are always those people who shun anything they aren't familiar with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sashiro Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 ... child pornography? What in the HELL are you referring to? Amateurish..? These movies took around 2 to 4 years of intense work to make, and Miyazaki (and the whole Ghibli Studio!) is considered the best in their field by animators world-wide. Besides, most of these movies they are showing were made in the 80's, and were all %100 hand-drawn. And I still don't understand where the child pornography comment came from. The only thing I can possibly guess is you saw the one scene in Totoro when the 2 young girls were taking a bath with their father? Though I still don't get that, because it didn't show anything at all, plus in Japan, it's normal for girls to take baths with their fathers up until like, 8 years old...as it is for women to take baths with their little boys. I swear, some people have no knowledge of the outside world... I think all Ghibli films are rated G...Spirited Away might be PG. But there are some that are more aimed towards adults (ala Only Yesterday), but even those are G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredCDobbs Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 The motion in these modern kids cartoons are too jerky and their plots are too immature, inane, and juvenile. You kids take them to the Disney Channel or the Cartoon Channel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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