Any Gary Cooper Fans?

[CoopfanDan]

Hey Frank is Casablanca film noir. I have always wanted to know if this movie is film noir or it is considered a romance movie.

[CoopsGal]

Dan, a topic I found from associatedcontent.com:

 

 

"Casablanca: Film Noir or Not Film Noir?

 

 

Interestingly, almost no list of classic film noirs includes the Bogart classic Casablanca despite the fact that it contains nearly every single element that a film noir should contain. Although no two people are likely to agree on exactly what elements are necessary to constitute describing a film as noir, most fans of the genre would probably find little to argue about in this assessment from the web site Filmsite.org: "The primary moods of classic film noir were melancholy, alienation, bleakness, disillusionment, disenchantment, pessimism, ambiguity, moral corruption, evil, guilt, desperation and paranoia". A quick overview of Casablanca reveals that of those elements the film is lacking...only one. Since Casablanca is universally regarded as a film classic does the fact that it is almost never mentioned as a film noir classic mean that it is not actually a film noir?

 

 

Film noir is most notable for its cinematic look: black and white cinematography, heightened use of shadows and darkness, and distorted, Expressionist staging. Clearly, Casablanca was filmed in black & white and clearly it makes effective use of shadows, especially in the key scenes that take place in Rick's caf? afterhours. However, one would be hard-pressed to describe the film as Expressionistic. It is a deeply realistic film, in fact, directed in an almost pedestrian manner with little in the way of unusual angles or camera movement. Since the distorted look of most film noirs is intended as a manifestation of the distortion of values and morals that drive the characters in the story, perhaps this may be why Casablanca is rarely regarded as film noir.

 

 

That the visual style of Casablanca does not serve to heighten the moral ambiguity should not be confused with the idea that the film doesn't contain elements of ambiguous morality, however. Rick Blaine begins the film as one of the most disillusioned and apparently amoral leading characters to appear in a major Hollywood since the introduction of the Hays Code. The character of Renault is generally regarded as even more amoral and disillusioned. The story revolves around a woman who is the cause of Rick's disillusionment and although nobody should ever take the argument that Ilsa should be considered a femme fatale, she possesses enough of the darkness within her to qualify at least as female with a profound sense of disillusionment and not just a little confusion regarding her morals. And, of course, quite clearly most of the other non-Nazi characters exhibit signs of moral ambiguity. The Nazis, naturally, represent the evil in the universe. So, then is Casablanca not to be considered a film noir merely because its director chose to shoot scenes without a tilted camera? No, the real reason that Casablanca presents a problem to the lover of film noir goes back to that missing element from Tim Dirks' description."

[CoopfanDan]

Frank I can handle and often like watching the less noble character or even dispicable person, tramp or whatnot as long as there is a person I can like that I can root for also in the movie. This is the case in the One Sunday afternoon. I can not quite see just how good Frances Fuller is without seeing just how bad Fay Wray is. It is a very good combination to have them both in the picture and this movie is probably my favorite pre-1935 Gary Cooper movie. Most good stories have a villian in them or characters that are completly oppoiste. However I must have a hero or heroin to be in the story for me to like it. I certainly don't want to watch a movie where I don't like any of the characters as I guess many film noir movies have. I don't like gangster movies for this reason. Gangsters shooting other gangsters. However, in Key Largo the hero Bogart shoots them all in the boat at the end and that was truely a great movie.

[CoopfanDan]

Why thanks Kim for that informative look into Casablanca as film noir. It may also have something to do with Bogart becoming a true hero at the end. I will have to check if you can have a true hero in a film noir movie.

[FrankGrimes]

Dan -- I still find my greatest entertainment value in watching a good completly non-sexual romantic story be it a pure romance story, a western, a war movie or a comedy. Of course while I think most of Gary Cooper's movies to not have that much sexual appeal or tension, many of the women that post here state that for them there is a great deal of sexual appeal to them. So I guess as a guy I can watch a Gary Cooper movie for the story and never notice the things that others of the female persuasion pick up on.

 

All that matters is if a film entertains you or not. Everyone has their own tastes. And just when you think you know your tastes, they may change. I never thought I would be into classic film, but here I am. I never thought I'd say Barbara Stanwyck is my favorite actress, but here I be. I never thought I'd ever care about German silents, but lookie here. Hey, maybe Gary Cooper becomes one of my favorite actors in time. I'm not sure. I'm willing to find out.

 

There are those who do call *Casablanca* a film noir but noir purists would say that it's not. It has many noir elements, I'll say that.

 

Mrs. Goody Goody Gumdrops -- I'm an extreme loyalist as well. Once I find an actor, I will dive deep into the obsession and not come out for, sometimes, years. I can't just pace myself and buy a couple movies each year on that one particular person -- I need to buy them all...immediately! If it's Gary Cooper -- it's only Gary Cooper. I need to find as much information about him as possible or else I don't feel as though I've mastered the obsession, lol.

 

I bounce around. I can watch any kind of film, although I do focus on film noir and certain directors. I started with Hitchcock and I'm now on Fritz Lang. (Yes, Scott just mentioned Lang... again.)

 

I know it sounds crazy, but to love more than one person is foreign to me. I never have more than one crush; so I'm at least thankful to know that I'll be a good wife someday, lol.

 

I'm sure you will make a wonderful wife. I can have multiple crushes on actresses, but not in the real world.

 

Most people have more than one celebrity crush -- I suppose it's only natural -- and I know you're probably speaking about women in real life (such as dating and what-not) but I've never dated so I just stick with the men who are no longer living...it's so much safer that way and you don't have to worry about the unfaithfulness.

 

Yes, love can hurt and men can be terrible, but don't be scared off by that. Every person is different.

[CoopsGal]

I can handle and often like watching the less noble character or even dispicable person, tramp or whatnot as long as there is a person I can like that I can root for also in the movie. This is the case in the One Sunday afternoon. I can not quite see just how good Frances Fuller is without seeing just how bad Fay Wray is. It is a very good combination to have them both in the picture and this movie is

 

 

My thoughts exactly. If a movie has too much pain, heartache or villianry (it's 3am, in my mind I say it's a word) then it suddenly becomes distasteful and boring; I'm most likely to forget it by the next film. Sure, not every movie ends happily but a--okay, I'm just gonna step out of this conversation. I know I'm getting annoying with all my intruding thoughts but it's wonderful to read such debates and I'll definitely take note on what's being said and consider them while I'm watching these films in the future. Thanks for your thoughts, fellas!

 

 

EDIT: This excludes all Noir. lol, I was thinking about that when I re-read this post. I love noir films that make you think -- and keep you on your toes guessing until the very end -- they make me absolutely giddy. But in dramatic films, if I can't find common ground with an actor or actress I just turn it off and walk away because I can't relate. I'll give it a try for a while but there are many films that seem too driven and focused on one aspect of the film -- revenge, hatred, or what-not; and it completely loses it's sense of power because it lacks that one most important element: sympathy.

[CoopfanDan]

Oh I am stepping out for now from this myself Kim as it is 4 am here in the east.

 

I do love all of Franks comments and am learning some things about film noir which is good. I guess with my own preference whether the movie ends on a good note or a bad one, I do like the main character to be a noble type if not at the beginning at least by the end.

 

Bogart in Casablanca was a character I really liked because while he was indifferent about things at the beginning, his character changed and he stood up for what was right at the end of the movie. He had a complex character and I like that a great deal for a character. He was very much like this in the movie Key Largo as well and just love that type of character that changes during the movie from indifferent to good.

[FrankGrimes]

Dan -- Frank I can handle and often like watching the less noble character or even dispicable person, tramp or whatnot as long as there is a person I can like that I can root for also in the movie.... Most good stories have a villian in them or characters that are completly oppoiste. However I must have a hero or heroin to be in the story for me to like it. I certainly don't want to watch a movie where I don't like any of the characters as I guess many film noir movies have.

 

You prefer black and white and I prefer grey. I can enjoy both types of films, but I do prefer grey.

 

Film noirs tend to be all over the map, although I would categorize them as tragedies. The lessons can be harsh... but not always. There are happy endings in noir. Sometimes the protagonist "wakes up" or is bailed out at the end. It's quite a varied, interesting mix of films these noirs.

 

By the way, Miss G is someone who often mentions not liking films that don't have any "likeable characters." I may not like characters in films, but I will still find them interesting for some reason or another.

 

Bogart in Casablanca was a character I really liked because while he was indifferent about things at the beginning, his character changed and he stood up for what was right at the end of the movie. He had a complex character and I like that a great deal for a character. He was very much like this in the movie Key Largo as well and just love that type of character that changes during the movie from indifferent to good.

 

You just said the word I've been seeking all night long... "complex." That's really what film noir tends to be, especially the characters that dwell within its boundaries. That's the grey that I love.

 

So, Dan, will you still respect me in the morning? Sorry, I had to part with a joke.

 

 

Mrs. C -- I know I'm getting annoying with all my intruding thoughts but it's wonderful to read such debates and I'll definitely take note on what's being said and consider them while I'm watching these films in the future.

 

We're gonna have to boost your confidence level, Missy. You're not intruding one bit, in fact, it's been quite the opposite. You've ADDED to the conversation.

[CoopsGal]

We're gonna have to boost your confidence level, Missy. You're not intruding one bit, in fact, it's been quite the opposite. You've ADDED to the conversation.

 

 

Well ya'll are starting your posts off with each others' name and it FINALLY caught on that maybe I'm intruding, lol. I don't have much contact with people who are living so the body language -- or in this case font language -- is a little rusty.

[CoopfanDan]

Now I just have to find out what Hichcock movies are considered film noir. If there are a bunch of his that fall under this catagory then I am already a big fan as I would say that I loved every movie he made I think up to and including the Birds. Well at least the movies I have seen of his which would total about between 20-30 films

 

I do plan on doing a little research on all this as it is quite interesting stuff.

[CoopsGal]

LOL, Angie, your accent is rubbing off! I get off the phone with you and everyone knows who I've been talking to!

 

 

I want a Montana accent...maybe I'll download one from iTunes.

[CoopfanDan]

Kim,

 

You are certainly one of the major contribtors to any conversations on Gary Cooper and films in general that I know

 

I very much respect your opinion on all things to the highest degree.

 

Dan

[FrankGrimes]

Now I just have to find out what Hichcock movies are considered film noir.

 

*Strangers on a Train*, *Shadow of a Doubt*, and *The Wrong Man* are the most noirish of Hitch's films for me. *Notorious* and *Spellbound* are also considered to be in the film noir ballpark. I'd also say *I Confess* and *The Paradine Case* are right on the border.

[CoopsGal]

Kim,

 

You are certainly one of the major contribtors to any conversations on Gary Cooper and films in general that I know

 

I very much respect your opinion on all things to the highest degree.

 

 

Awwww, well golly gee, you guys!

 

 

I can't tell you how much you've given me new thoughts concerning...well...more things than I can remember this late at night; but I do so very much respect each one of your opinions and I hope we have another wonderful debate soon. Though I must say I still stand firm on those eyebrows...or the lack thereof. Sure, they had their style back then...but in some cases I'm just glad we've moved on.

 

 

For anyone who just happened upon this site and completely got disoriented by the photo...don't worry, the feeling of terror will soon go away....just don't make eye contact with it.

[jemnyc]

Hey, Frank, thanks for the info on highlighting. Here goes, and what follows is (or should be) from Dan's post a couple of days back:

 

What Lies Beneath 2000 was pretty good as well. With all the talk everywhere on the movie he was in called Bladerunner it is quite strange that this may be one of the only pre 2000 movies of his that I have never seen.

 

Blade Runner may not be for all tastes, rather violent and downbeat, but I happen to think it terrific. In fact, it's being revived in theatres in early October. Here in NYC, it's going to play at the Ziegfeld, a great huge place with a huge screen, terrific sound, etc. Very much looking forward to it.

 

As for What Lies Beneath, to tie this in with GC, Harrison Ford and Robert Zemeckis -- who both have great admiration for GC -- made a point of calling the family dog Coop. This was done to reference GC, and Harrison Ford said in interviews that he went all the way, actually was the murderer, whereas Coop in The Naked Edge was not.

 

Here goes ...

 

The bottom four grafs are from me, should not be italics. But each time I try to correct this, I end up losing my quote from Dan.

 

Message was edited by: jemnyc

[jemnyc]

Regarding noir -- and what a nice thread you've got going on noir -- I've often wondered if Blowing Wild isn't a noir? It's got Stanwyck, definitely a woman leading a man to his doom; in fact, two, both Quinn and GC. And a second woman, Ruth Roman, trying to scam GC at the beginning. Black & white, menacing shadows, off-kilter lighting -- the scene when GC is lying in bed, only a dim bulb at the bedside table, Stanwyck comes in and works her wiles to get him to cheat his friend, Quinn, and take off with her. Very good scene. Blowing Wild has something of a cult following, rarely mentioned among GC's films. maybe because it's part Treasure/Madre at the start, then veers off into noir melodrama. Whatever it is, I find it a fascinating film. Certainly not classic noir, i.e., Out Of The Past, Double Indemnity, Sunset Boulevard, Big Heat, etc.

[jemnyc]

Quite a while ago, Dan, you were discussing Souls At Sea, your fondness for it. I started scrolling back to find your comments, but it must have been a couple of hundred posts back -- even if only a week or so! -- so I'm responding without your quotes -- which I'd no doubt mess up, anyway.

 

If Souls At Sea seems somewhat choppy, there's a very good reason. It was planned as a roadshow film, two shows a day, buy tickets beforehand, an intermission, etc. The finished film was 2 hrs and 20 minutes, without interruption.

 

However, a long sequence in the middle -- almost half-an-hour, had to do with a slave revolt on a ship. GC is instrumental in starting it and freeing the slaves, killing the slavers on board, taking the ship to land and all of the slaves escape. There were other scenes which played off this. However, when Paramount execs viewed the rough cut, they realized they could never play the film as it was in the south. I've never been able to nail this down, but apparently the sequence was based (loosely) on the Amistad. Jack Hathaway, director Henry Hathaway's son, first told me this. There was a sequence in which GC and the slaves force the white slavers off the ship, which mirrors the later scenes when GC forces people off the lifeboats. But Paramount knew this could never be shown down south. Which meant they'd lose a lot of money. So they took the film from Hathaway and sliced-and-diced it down to 90 minutes. That's 50 minutes, gone!

 

It was this which convinced GC to get out of his Paramount contract. He was disgusted, felt the film made little sense now, and that Paramount was cowardly for running from what he thought was a powerful film. And within six months, he'd managed to find a way to get out of his contract. Even though Paramount sued him for six million dollars, took him to court, he fought, refused to give in, and got his freedom.

 

The irony is that he signed with Goldwyn because he thought that Goldwyn, as basically an independent producer, would be more open to doing the sort of things GC wanted to do.

 

Example, GC tried to get Goldwyn to buy the rights to both Grapes Of Wrath (GC wanted Wyler to direct) and Appointment In Samarra (GC and O'Hara had become friends during the filming of General/Dawn). Goldwyn refused to buy either.

 

So, GC being GC, after his six-film contract with Goldwyn was finished, he refused to resign with him, either.

[CoopfanDan]

"As for What Lies Beneath, to tie this in with GC, Harrison Ford and Robert Zemeckis -- who both have great admiration for GC -- made a point of calling the family dog Coop. This was done to reference GC, and Harrison Ford said in interviews that he went all the way, actually was the murderer, whereas Coop in The Naked Edge was not."

Actually, the first time I seen "The Naked Edge" I thought to myself of What Lies Beneath. This was the first time I ever made a comparison between Gary Cooper and Harrison Ford. Your comments brought me back to this comparison as I never knew of any Cooper conncetion until just now. I think Harrison Ford would have been close to the same age and everything and the type of movie was just very similar except for the way it turned out at the end and the supernatural element introduced to the story. I will always have very fond thoughts of What Lies Beneath as it was the last movie I saw with a certain person that I no longer am involved with. I never noticed the dog's name but have this movie on dvd and it will be a good chance to watch the movie over again. From what I remember it was a terrific Hitchcock type movie that left a big impression on me and my ex after seeing it.

Blade Runner may not be for all tastes, rather violent and downbeat, but I happen to think it terrific. In fact, it's being revived in theatres in early October. Here in NYC, it's going to play at the Ziegfeld, a great huge place with a huge screen, terrific sound, etc. Very much looking forward to it.

I'm probably going to have to pick up the 4 SE dvd box set when it comes out in December for this movie. I have heard that there is a narration version and a non-narration version of the film and think they will both be in the SE boxset. It is one of few Harrison Ford movies that I have not seen and will have to correct that. From what I have read it looks like it may be a film noir type sci Fi film. I have read that is very dark and grim type movie.

[CoopfanDan]

Quite a while ago, Dan, you were discussing Souls At Sea, your fondness for it.

I was on the other end of that conversation as both Kim (Mrs Cooper) and Angie (coopsgirl) liked this movie a great deal more than I did. My argument I think was to not included it in the next Universial Box set at the expense of putting in better comedies such as Desire or Bluebeard's Eigth Wife.

 

I had quite a agument going with one person on another board who doesn't post here on what movies should go in the next Universial box set and it had to do with Bluebeard's Eigth wife being included and they thought that that movie was horrible and that Souls at Sea was Cooper's best movie or something and had to be included in the next box set. Actually that person thought it was a travesty that Souls at Sea was not included in the first box set and I think they liked it even better than all five of those movies.

 

I am not as found of Cooper's sidekick (George Raft) as Kim is, and didn't think the story line was as exciting as other adventure movies like "The General Died at Dawn" and others. I have fond memeries of various parts of the film particularlly the beginning and with Gary's singing in the movie but was let down with the middle to the end of the film a great deal. I go with Cooper's own comments for this film in that it was the almost film. The film was almost good, the story was almost interestering and Gary was almost good in it. It is interesting your comments on all the footage that was cut out. Perhaps it would have been a great deal better if this footage would have remained intact. I still enjoy the movie and have watched it several times but I think I would pick about 10 of his movies from the 30's over this one to go in the next Universial box set of Cooper's 30's films. I did love the beginning of this film though especially where they are hanging up on the sails of the ship by their thumbs and I guess his sidekick (George Raft) was pretty good in it but I do get tired of non-cooper fans commenting on this film solely for his performance much like they do for that other actor Richard Widmark that was Cooper's buddy in Garden of Evil. I have read whole converstations by others on Richard Widmark and Garden of Evil that never even mention Gary's presence in the film. I am one that does not think he was all that great and just about any actor could have played that part just as well. There are only two essential people in that film and they were Gary Cooper and Susan Hayward in my view.

[coopsgirl]

Wow y'all sure were busy last night - good stuff though!

 

John, thanks for the info about Souls at Sea. I know that was a pretty common practice in the 30s to cut scenes out of films for distribution in the South. They did it with one of Shirley Temple's films (one of her big ones but the name escapes me) where she's tap dancing on the stairs with a black man. I like Souls at Sea but I know Gary wasn't happy with the final product and now that sheds a little more light on why he didn't like it.

 

Blowing Wild is one of his films that I re-watch the most. I love him and Stanwyck together (she and Jean Arthur are my fave actresses). I never thought of it as film noir (don't know much about that genre) but I can see how it might be considered noir-ish.

 

Kim - you're cracking me up about the accent thing. I notice when I get off the phone with you that I start talking different too for a while. It's weird how accents can rub off on you. If I tried to do another accent on purpose though it would sound terrible. This hick Southeast Tx accent is the only one I can do - ha!

 

Dan - Don't let the date of a movie fool you People talk a lot about pre-codes but really not all films that came out before the production code would be considered a "pre-code" like most people think about them. They're not all 'Babyface's (which I also like too Frank and I had a chance to see it on the big screen this summer). I get tickled sometimes when people go on and on about pre-codes b/c a large amount of those movies could have been released without any problems after the production code as well. I'm also a fan of the code (well at least some parts of it. Minorities were probably hurt the most by it and that's a shame) and wish movies could go back to having more decency. I think the code forced movie makers to be more clever and make better products.

 

As far as Jean Harlow goes, I've only seen one of her movies, Bombshell, as a double feature with Babyface. You might like that one Dan, as its a satire about her image as a sex goddess. It's really a fun movie.

[CoopfanDan]

I have only watched Blowing Wild one time and will have to give it another go. It did give me the impression at the beginning of The Treasure of Sierra Madre and had quite a sad ending. It was quite a bit different than any other movie I have seen Gary Cooper in and perhaps this one might pass as film noir. It's not one of my favorites but I have only seen it once. I like Stanwyck more in her romantic movies with Cooper when she was younger. I will have to see it again soon as it may be one my least watched Cooper movies in my collection.

[coopsgirl]

Barbara is definitely in one of her 'mean-woman' roles in Blowing Wild, much different from Ball of Fire and Meet John Doe. I think she was equally good at both types of roles though and I really want to see Double Indemnity and The Strange Love of Martha Ivers (this one will be on TCM soon) as she is really bad in those. Ruth Roman also did three films with Gary and Blowing Wild was their last one together. She was also in Dallas (another one of my faves) and she only has one scene with Gary in Good Sam but I'm counting it anyway - ha!

[CoopfanDan]

I think I have stated this before but it is worth repeating in that while I may get critical of some of Gary's movies, I would still pick them over about 90 percent of the movies from back then. Even if I don't always like the plot in a Gary Cooper movie, it is still very nice to see Gary in the movie and there are always memerbable scenes in any Gary Cooper movie. I think in my last statement like this I stated 99 percent of all other movies, but that was before I started enjoying all the Bette Davis, Greer Garson, Ronald Colman, Cary Grant and Errol Flynn movies.

[CoopfanDan]

It is hard for me to see Barbara as a very mean woman and I do know that she was like this in nearly all of her later pictures. It is much the same I guess as if I saw Gary in a very mean part (I don't think it ever happened) Bright leaf may be the cloeset he ever became to being an unlikable person but I still liked him very much even in that movie. It is very hard not to like Gary Cooper in any movie. I don't think he was capable of playing a villian (his only weakness or strength).

[jemnyc]

If you want to see Barbara Stanwyck in one of her best "mean girl" roles, catch

the Glenn Ford western, The Violent Men, from 1955. A noir western, as she leads

male schlump Brian Kieth to his doom when she gets him to try and kill her

husband -- played by Edward G. Robinson, who played the insurance investigator

who brings Stanwyck down in Double Indemnity. Very good film, underrated.

 

Stanwyck is one of the all-time champs.

 

Jean Arthur, too. What a voice!