Any Gary Cooper Fans?

[MissGoddess]

*My stars! I saw all the notifications in my "inbox" for this thread and just had to jump in here for a look-see. You all have had an interesting conversation going, I'm sorry I missed it but those late hours would just about finish me* .

 

>>>In scrolling back comments, trying to catch up, came upon comments on the current 3:10 To Yuma, part of which:

 

 

What is so especially alarming, for me, about this appalling remake is its utter cynicism, which borders on outright nihilism. Characters introduced for no other reason than they can die a violent death. Plot hooks tossed in as an excuse to have a gunfight. And the conclusion, dramatically incomprehensible, renders all that has happened in the previous 1:55 meaningless.

 

And, with easily a hundred people slaughtered by the time we come to the lunacy masquerading as a showdown, who cares that a principal character lies dead? What's one more body?

 

Shame on critics for ignoring all of this and instead on congratulating director James Mangold for bringing back the western. Although, Assassination of Jesse James et al will put it back in the coffin.

 

Message was edited by: jemnyc

 

Message was edited by: jemnyc

 

Message was edited by: jemnyc

 

Message was edited by: jemnyc Tried to separate previous comment and my own, giving up. <<<

 

*John* Are those your thoughts or were you quoting? I know I have the same trouble trying to italicize anything so I don't bother. But that's a great analysis, says what I feel about this remake so much better than I could ever do. By the way, I thought about your recommendations of *History of Violence* when I saw the trailers for *Eastern Promises* at the theater---I'm afraid now! If History of Violence is as violent as the trailers for this movie I might not be able to handle it. I think the subject matter of Eastern Promises looks so interesting but, eek, the brutality appears to be extreme.

 

Frank---caught you hanging out in Coopland for quite an extended period but still no expansion on the tease about Grace in High Noon. Tsk tsk! Pandora wants to open that box!

 

And relating back to the discussion about "likable characters" in movies---I want to add that my own "criteria", if you will, for liking a character, is fairly fluid and loose. I have made too many mistakes in my life so far and therefore feel very drawn to people who try and sometimes fail to do what's right or who see their motives questioned based on predisposed ideas about their morality. That's why in noir films, for instance, I like the "bad girls" who try to go straight or do right by their man or kin---they ring true to me. I also like the naive, nice young women but it's more interesting to find out what they'll do when their ideals are tested. I used to be so much more high minded about these things, I can't be judgemental about shady ladies anymore. I've known some shady ladies who were straight up honest when it counted and so I love a gal like Claire Trevor in *Raw Deal* ---she is not a nice lady but she was the most honorable character in the end (same with her gal in *Stagecoach* ). Or Carolyn Jones in *Last Train to Gun Hill* . Her character was the most interesting in that most suspensful western (by the way---this is the one to see if you want to know how 3:10 to Yuma's premise *should* play out). I could name dozens more characters, female AND male, who are like this. It's stupid or totally weak (treacherous) characters who mostly tend to turn me off.

 

I don't mind meanness (if it's only a front), shallowness, sarcasm---anything, if the character is honest about it. I guess that's what I should have said from the start---almost any character that is *honest* about what he or she is, has my respect.

[FrankGrimes]

Miss Weekend -- "My stars!" So I guess I didn't need to take my pill today.

 

Frank---caught you hanging out in Coopland for quite an extended period but still no expansion on the tease about Grace in High Noon. Tsk tsk! Pandora wants to open that box!

 

I didn't have time! Dan & Mrs. C ran me ragged last night. Or was it the other way around?

 

I'll try to provide real Cooper talk soon enough. I doubt I'll get to it today, though. Limited time.

 

John -- Nice to see your "never give up" attitude. Everyone around here appreciates your patient willingness to share your informed opinions. I'll give you a better reply to your reply when I have a little more time. I'll have to check out the Cooper-Stanwyck combo in *Blowing Wild*. It sounds fascinating.

[MissGoddess]

Pill? What pill? A Happy Pill? A Sleepy Pill? Or am I the pill?

[CoopsGal]

I didn't have time! Dan & Mrs. C ran me ragged last night. Or was it the other way around?

 

It was unmistakably the other way around, Mr. Grimes. You're quite the conversationalist! I didn't get to bed until 4 in the morning because my mind was so full of new ideas and an inspiration to barrel through all those Noir films sitting on my shelves! I'm also still anxiously awaiting your feedback on the Fountainhead

 

I dislike that film so very much, as I've stated before, but it would be nice to hear your thoughts coming from a different perspective.

[FrankGrimes]

Mrs. Changed Woman -- It was unmistakably the other way around, Mr. Grimes. You're quite the conversationalist! I didn't get to bed until 4 in the morning because my mind was so full of new ideas and an inspiration to barrel through all those Noir films sitting on my shelves!

 

That's a gorgeous compliment, Mrs. C. I'm always looking to stimulate others. I'm very glad to hear you are so inspired. Since you are in the Noir world, I'll return the favor and start watching Coop films. You've cinched my purchase of the Coop box set.

 

By the way, you (and Dan) possess strong stimulative powers. I'm glad you spent last night with me. How's that for sexuality?

 

I'm also still anxiously awaiting your feedback on the Fountainhead. I dislike that film so very much, as I've stated before, but it would be nice to hear your thoughts coming from a different perspective.

 

Are you setting a trap for me with your open-minded kindness? Be gentle.

 

Miss Too Many Mistakes -- Pill? What pill? A Happy Pill? A Sleepy Pill? Or am I the pill?

 

Just a reminder:

 

For, you see, my Monday sickness was due to a severe case of Miss G withdrawal. I take pills for the weekend, but I don't have a thing to fight off Mondays.

 

3. pill - a unpleasant or tiresome person

 

That doesn't sound like a kitten to me. You are quite an interesting drug, though.

[CoopfanDan]

I re-watced the movie today Blowing Wild and all I can say is wow. Barbara Stanwyck gave a very complex performance in this movie that was mean but also quite vulnarable I think would be the word to use. I very much felt sympathy for her in this part and loved Cooper's performance in his final confrontation with her. It was much better for me on second viewing and is truely an undervated film for both Stanwyck and Cooper.

 

I also watched a movie on tcm the other day with shirley MacLaine that left a very big impression. It was titled Some Came Running with Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin. I would say that while she played the tramp she was one with a heart of gold and while certainly Frank and Dean were not good people in this movie (very gray) she was most certainly the heroin in this story for sure. I'm not sure if it would pass for film noir but everyone in this movie was very gray except for her. I loved Shirley MacLaine in this movie and in the Apartment and I think I really want to check her out in Can Can that was done around the same time. I am not a fan at all of her late works but these early movies showed me a great deal on her acting ability. When what Dean Martin refers to her as a Tramp I am in all favor of tramps like this in film as she just blew me away with the goodness that overflowed out her being in this one.

 

Also I would like to add that while the teacher Frank's love interest was a respectable teacher she had nothing on Shirley MacLaine character. I very much disliked the respectable teacher lady Martha Hyler when comparing her to Shirley MacLaine character. I am not sure if it was just Martha Hyler's acting ability that was terrible or just didn't like her character but Shirley MacLaine was the one to watch in this movie.

[CoopfanDan]

I think maybe it might have been a combination of all three of us keep each other up last night. It is a shame the conversation got started so late, but that is really the time when I have nothing going on.

[jemnyc]

Miss G, regarding

 

John Are those your thoughts or were you quoting?

 

Mine. Never know it, of course, since the quote from the previous post managed to evaporate from the time I'd press Post message and the time the message appeared. But they're mine. I found this 3:10 To Yuma remake unforgivably nihilistic. Utterly pointless.

 

And while it is graphically violent, it is the lack of a moral center which offends me. I don't care if character A is a villain, if character B is morally conflicted, if Character C is not a likable person, etc. As long as you give me a reason to stay with and be interested in these characters, I'm with you. The absurdist ending to this 3:10 remake throws the entire film out of whack. And the ending following the ending is even more shameful, since it closes on the equivalent of a smarmy wisecrack. I am amazed at how critics have ignored the deep, deep cynical backbone of the film.

 

The Wild Bunch was graphically violent, filled with a lot of morally reprehensible characters, and yet, because the script gave me a reason to follow these men and their lives, I went with it and think it one of the greatest westerns ever made. But there was a moral center to the film, it wasn't cynical, nihilistic. Unforgiven is very violent, yet there's a moral gravity to the situation, the characters, thus the violence works within the context.

 

As far as Eastern Promises, Miss G, it is very violent. But it's a film dealing with the Russian mob in London, and couldn't be anything but violent. It's not irresponsible. the issues it tackles under the guise of a gangster film are very real. Tragically so.

 

My wife and I found it brilliant, with Viggo Mortensen once again turning in a sublime performance. It is far more violent than A History Of Violence (same director and another great Viggo perf). The violence in A History Of Violence is absolutely necessary, and because of the way the story is structured, we feel revulsion at the first violent incident, but from then on, we are put in the position of actually cheering each succeeding act of violence. It forces an audience to confront its own perhaps not-so-latent violent instinct.

 

A History Of Violence is also a loose reworking of Man Of The West.

[MissGoddess]

*Blowing Wild* is one of the few later Coop movies I still have never seen. I just can't wait to, especially after all this discussion. I have the feeling I'm going to love it.

[CoopsGal]

That's a gorgeous compliment, Mrs. C. I'm always looking to stimulate others. I'm very glad to hear you are so inspired. Since you are in the Noir world, I'll return the favor and start watching Coop films. You've cinched my purchase of the Coop box set.

 

I know you'll find them to your liking -- you may even branch out and find you like more of his goofier films.

 

By the way, you (and Dan) possess strong stimulative powers. I'm glad you spent last night with me. How's that for sexuality?

 

WHO TURNED UP THE HEAT?!

 

Well, hopefully next time we chat it won't be so early in the morning when my brain begins to shut down and run toward the sillier aspects of all our topics. But it was very stimulating and I enjoyed getting to know your personal tastes as well.

 

Are you setting a trap for me with your open-minded kindness? Be gentle.

 

No trap, just desperately searching for a new review that could give me another outlook on the film. And I assure you, Mr. Hopeless-Romantic-For-Femme-Fetales, I am always gentle.

[jemnyc]

Miss G, regarding:

 

Blowing Wild is one of the few later Coop movies

I still have never seen. I just can't wait to, especially

after all this discussion. I have the feeling I'm going

to love it.

 

It's always surprised me how Blowing Wild is so little appreciated. I don't know if that's because it's such a fish-out-of-water type film for GC, or simply that coming so soon after High Noon, audiences and critics felt it a letdown. Anthony Quinn thought it one of his best. It's dark, and as I mentioned earlier, has many of the touchstones to qualify as noir. Be curious what you think? Was glad to hear Angie speak so highly of it. And now Dan is a convert.

[MissGoddess]

John, I'm going to share your comments with a couple of friends, one of whom saw 3:10 to Yuma with me and felt the same way. *Nihilism* is the word I groped for and you pegged it for me.

 

Regarding *A History of Violence* you said:

 

A History Of Violence is also a loose reworking of Man Of The West

 

You really know how to bait my trap. It's sprung! Now I want to push that movie to the top of my Netflix queue! My list of favorite Coop films is sometimes in flux, but many times *Man of the West* has been at the top.

[butterscotchgreer]

*"Let me clarify one thing: sexuality does not mean a women has to act like Marilyn Monroe or Jean Harlow or Barbara Stanwyck in Baby Face. Not at all. I find the taste of sexuality is at its sweetest when it's subtle, although still quite palpable." *

 

those are exactly my sentiments and very well said! my goodness a girl cant even get to sleep without missing two pages worth of great discussions. heehee!

 

i have watched many movies of rita hayworth, and marylin monroe, and ava gardner, and jean harlow, and all thor other sex goddesses, but i really dont see what the whole deal is with them. i cant stand seeing a woman throwing herself at a man in the sense that the yare being sexual about it. i HATE watching that, but thats just me. i think men and women can be just as attractive without taking their clothes off, or being sexual at all about it, granted i do like a few modern movies that arent exactly what you would call nonsexual. okay so we all have our weeknesses. heehee!

 

 

angie, i cant believe you found that melody jones picture!!! yay!!!!!!! you know i printed out that one. heehee!

[CoopsGal]

Hello John! So glad to see you're back!

 

 

They've fixed the place up quite a bit and it's working (for now) but I'm glad you held tight and didn't give up.

 

In response to your Blowing Wild comment:

 

Personally, I didn't care for the movie. I do enjoy Noir films, obviously, but this one wasn't a favorite because I couldn't fully picture Gary as the character of Jeff Dawson.

 

 

He's tremendously talented, but when I get to know someone by studying their career and personal life -- I guess I can't relate as well because it's not the sweet, courageous, 'quiet' and noble hero I've gotten to know in his previous 82 films (round-about). To know he's just the opposite of who he's portraying in the film just detaches me from being completely captivated. I understand it's just a movie and you're bound to get movies that are the absolute opposite of who the actors truly were in real life -- but again, personally I can't get a grasp around that character if I know the actor doesn't believe in it 100% -- like the Fountainhead. I like to know that at least a little bit of his true character peaks itself through but I guess that's just why I don't care for ?Man of the West? either. I've met a lot of people who say they've seen 'Man of the West' or 'They Came to Cordura' and just never bothered to get into any of his other films because they thought that's who he truly was in real life.

 

 

I understand that's their own personal view and shouldn't effect how I feel toward a movie but as I said, I just like to have the comfort in knowing the actor is giving his all to contribute to the film because he wants a positive outcome to grow from his portrayal -- something that will make the audience reflect in their own personal lives and walk away from the movie with something to be inspired by.

 

I may have to sit down and watch Blowing Wild again because I had reservations -- only seeing about 30 of his films before I sat down and watched it all the way through.

 

[jemnyc]

Miss G, regarding your comment:

 

My list of favorite Coop films is sometimes in flux,

but many times Man of the West has been at the top.

 

Me, too! Such a rich film. Man/West does some of the same things in regards to rooting for violence as A History Of Violence. The scene where the gargoyles in the Tobin gang force Billie to strip is a case in point. On the one hand, it's an ugly moment, we feel such dread for her and shame as she's forced to disrobe. It's still, to this day, hard to watch. Most films would never have offered the kicker that Man/West does. The stunningly vicious and graphic fight between Link and Coaley -- without stunt doubles, Mann wanted to shoot it with close-ups, three camera set-up -- they are finally like primitive beasts, and then the kicker -- Link makes Coaley strip, humiliating him. It's brilliant and we in the audience are eager to see Coaley so humiliated.

 

History/Violence plays with violence and audience response in the same way.

[jemnyc]

Hi, Mrs. C:

 

Thanks for the welcome back. I still muck it up when I plop a comment from another post within my own post, so am not doing so with your comments.

 

That's interesting, about the personal life and the screen portrayal. I suspect that most actors would agree with you, at least to the extent that they have to find some kernel of humanity upon which to build a character. GC himself once said, when asked what he looked for in a character, that he looked for a character who left the world a better place.

 

Films like Cordura, Man/West, Blowing Wild, etc., though his characters are hardly earth angels, they are men struggling with conflict within, trying to come to terms with their more base nature. I have a friend, a writer and critic who has written extensively on the western, GC is his favorite actor, but he doesn't like Man/West, because he just can't buy Gary Cooper being a killer.

 

Interestingly, when GC turned down the role of Rhett Butler in Gone With The Wind, his comment was: "How could I play in that? The slave owners are the good guys." It isn't that he wouldn't play a confederate soldier, it's just that he felt the story was on the side of the confederacy, which he found untenable with his beliefs. Whether that's true is not the issue, it's that he had to believe in the moral center of the story in order to play in it.

 

I guess that a Jack Nicholson, a DeNiro, a Pacino, approach it differently, if the character is interesting, they'll play it no matter what.

[butterscotchgreer]

i couldnt have said that better kim, i was actually thinking the exact same thing!!!

 

i like to go to movies and come out being happy and that doesnt happen unless the actor or actress gives it her all and really knows what he or she is doing in that certain movie im watching. blowing wild is a great example.....i know kim's not particular to blowing wild, but i also know that angie thinks it is a fairly cute movie. im sorta in the middle of both of your opinions for this movie. i thought it was an okay movie, but i wasnt entirely impressed with gary's performance and i didnt feel that he gave 100 percent to it either, like i didnt feel he gave too much in Design for Living.i just feel that when i sit down to watch a movie, the people should give it their all. they should look like they are enjoying themselves, or in dramatic cases, they should look like they are really trying to be that person they are acting out.

 

does this even make sence?i feel like im getting lost in my own words heehee!

[MissGoddess]

Maybe it's my view of Cooper being primarily a "hero" in his films but I never thought of his character, Link, in *Man of the West* as being a killer. In his past, yes. We all are imperfect and for some, the primary struggle they have is with violent behavior. In a world where a man had to fight to stay alive, I'm sure violence was a knee-jerk reaction that was hard for men to lose. But by the time Link boards the train in the opening of MotW, the west has been pretty much "civilized", or is getting there. Link's inner humanity, that which caused him to walk away from "Pop" and his ghoulish ken, is uppermost at this point.

 

What happens later, what is fascinating is watching the struggle Gary shows of a man who finds his hard-won civility slipping off and the old, violent ways creeping back. But Gary in the end only kills to end the cycle of violence that Lee J. Cobb is perpetuating. I'm not justifyinig that---but I find it hard to judge him either, especially in light of what that old buzzard did to Julie London's character.

 

One other point, Arthur O'Connell's character jumps in front of Gary to take the bullet to save his life. I'll never forget how astonished I was by that character twist. It's fairly often in movies that the evil are shown redeeming themselves, but the merely craven? Almost never, except in Mann's and Ford's films.

 

Of course, the reason I like Gary in MotW and The Hanging Tree may simply be because I definitely like his "hard guy" roles best.

[butterscotchgreer]

*Of course, the reason I like Gary in MotW and The Hanging Tree may simply be because I definitely like his "hard guy" roles best.*

 

well i definitely love his goody two shoe/innocent roles best, but he does a prodigiously good job in his "hard guy" roles too. i thought was so convincing in the Hanging Tree as the misunderstood doctor. he never came across my mind as an evil person in that movie. i think he just protective and a bit misunderstood perhaps.

[CoopfanDan]

I just watched that scene in Man of the west again where he has that fist fight and undresses the guy. He shows a great deal of hate in that scene but it is a rightious hate brought on by the night before when the lady was forced to take off her cloths in from of everyone. He was almost at the killing point when he exclaimed "How does it feel" and began to choke him but then backed off and could do it. At the beginning of this scene you could tell that he had a great deal of fondness yet for the old man when he was shown grinning from ear to ear during a hand wrestling match. It was quite the movie and Link ended up being the noble hero at the end of it refusing to even consider leaving his wife for Julie London's character. All of the killings that Link did were like April stated to break the cycle and kill off the demons of his past. I can think nothing more than one of the greatest hero roles that Gary ever did in Link although a darker kind of hero but this was do to the circumtances that he was delt.

[CoopfanDan]

Theresa and Kim,

 

I thought he gave it his all in nearly every movie I watched of his. It is just that different kinds of characters are more relaxed sometimes and this was certainly the case with his character in Design for Living. I thought he did a fantastic job in this movie and think this may be the role he was most like in real life as a young movie star. As an older movie star I picture him as being most like the character in Love in the Afternoon in real life and perhaps like he was in Ten North Frederick (Older guy going after younger women type). Of course the real Gary Cooper was a very complex person who was probably a little bit of a mixture of all his movies for sure. For example there was the hunting Cooper, the sophisicated lady's man Cooper, and the family man Cooper to name a few. He may have been more complex in real life with such a diverse range of interests that I am not sure if any other actor or actress had as complex of a personality as did Gary.

[MissGoddess]

>>>well i definitely love his goody two shoe/innocent roles best<<<

 

Theresa-Angel: There you go, being angelic again! What did I tell you? Hee! Seriously, I think he's adorable when he's sweet, too.

[MissGoddess]

Interesting observations about Gary's on and offscreen complexity, Dan.

[CoopsGal]

I do like The Hanging Tree.

 

 

Even though everyone says he was evil in that film...I couldn't see it!

 

 

I just adore that quote from Elizabeth (who's blind): "Your hands are very large and gentle. You must have long legs because you cross the room in three steps."

[CoopfanDan]

Interestingly, when GC turned down the role of Rhett Butler in Gone With The Wind, his comment was: "How could I play in that? The slave owners are the good guys." It isn't that he wouldn't play a confederate soldier, it's just that he felt the story was on the side of the confederacy, which he found untenable with his beliefs. Whether that's true is not the issue, it's that he had to believe in the moral center of the story in order to play in it.

I guess this is most like me then as I have to believe in the moral center of the story in order to like a movie. Man of the West had it along with every Gary Cooper movie that I have seen. I guess this might be why he is my favorite actor and will always be. The original 3:10 to Yuma also had it.

 

I do have all three of those William Wyler Bette Davis movies but am very much affraid to watch any of them as I just don't know if the moral center of the story will be strong enough and I don't want to think of Bette Davis in any negative way from her movies Now Voyager and Dark Victory in which she played the heroin so brilliently as did cooper in all of his movies (even the darker one's). I am sure that I will never watch "The Letter". With Gary I never have to wory though as he always played a good movie with a strong moral center. Well perhaps maybe not in The Fountainhead but that movie is so confusing I really don't know what he is. I think 50 people could describe the plot to that movie and come up with 50 different views as to what it all means. I know I have explained it differently every time I tried to explain it to someone. I do like to watch some people in bad roles and even prefer them in some cases but I am not sure I do with Gary Cooper or Bette Davis. For example I can handle Harrison Ford being the killer in What Lies beneath but am so glad that Gary wasn't in The Naked Edge. I did hate with a passion that Bogart was the nut case in "The Two Mrs Carrolls" and loved the movie "In a Lonely Place" but it just wasn't something I wanted to see Bogart playing. It is just that some people I can handle in bad roles and others like Gary, Bette and Bogie don't think I would be able to. The movie The Tresure of the Sierra Madre is another example, great movie but I hated to see Bogart end up that way.