Any Gary Cooper Fans?

[coopsgirl]

I loved the last Icons show John where you and Meir Ribalow discussed Westerns past and present. They are probably the genre I know least about (that and film noir) as I have never really been interested in them but the discussion was great. It's still hard for me to wrap my brain around the fact that I love Gary's westerns and they are actually some of my favorite of his films. I think I could watch The Hanging Tree everyday

 

I was glad you brought up the fight scene between Gary and Jack Lord on the show. It was a very powerful scene especially to see Gary, who was usually pretty mellow, in such a rage. I mean he literally rips Jack Lords pants to shreds as he rips them off. One of my favorite parts of MotW is after the stripping scene when Gary and Julie go out to the barn. It's very telling of how his character has changed that she has no problem being in front of just him in her skivvies but she was afraid in front of Tobin's gang. I mean she doesn't really know him that well but she feels safe with him and I think that is just the very heart of who Gary was and the characters that he played. That's a big part of why I love him and and his films so much. There's just such a huge comfort factor in watching him.

[butterscotchgreer]

*As an older movie star I picture him as being most like the character in Love in the Afternoon in real life and perhaps like he was in Ten North Frederick (Older guy going after younger women type).*

 

 

dan, see i really thought the opposite og him in real life. i always pictured him in his late years as he is in the Hanging Tree and in Friendly Persuasion but softer and sweeter. do you know what i mean?

 

i never pictured him in real life as the sort who went for younger women.

[MissGoddess]

I love that quote by Maria Schell in The Hanging Tree. She understood his character before she even laid eyes on him---and wow, what a treat when she finally did see him!

[CoopfanDan]

Angie,

 

I couldn't have said it better myself. The comfort factor is the key I think in loving to Gary Cooper in movies. He was just such a likeable person that I don't think he could have ever pulled off an all out villion role.

 

Kim,

 

I like you do not think that Gary was anything but a hero in the movie The Hanging Tree. He had a dark past like he did in so many of his later movies but he is just impossable not to like him as he was in the present tense of that movie. I mean he secretly funded the mine and all that without anyone knowing except the store keeper and the only reason I think he was cold to Maria Schell's character is because of his past demons and a low outlook on himself that made him feel that she was better off without him in her life. He had a self sacrificing way about him where he wanted to do everything he could for her but didn't want to take any credit for it.

[CoopfanDan]

Well by later years I mean mid 40's to mid 50's. In the last years he had stopped all the cheating and all that so he was pretty much like those last roles more than likely. He was always a gentle and caring person who's only weakness and it was a big one that he couldn't say no to all the younger actresses that he worked with. Like I said in a the previous post though, I think we are all just grasping at air though as he had such a complex personality that I totaly think he it is impossible to know what exactly he was like at all times. For instance, he might have been a completly different person while out on a hunting trip with Hemmingway than he was when talking to women or when he was around his family. I know I am not always the same and my personality is different given the circumstances.

 

It was not meant to be in a negative way though as I do think he was gentle and kind person in Love in the Afternoon as he was in many of his movies.

 

I will have to watch that movie again as it has been like 5 years since I have seen the whole thing. He may have been more the lady stocker in that movie than what I can remember of it. I certainly don't think of him in that way. I think of him most of the time as a mixture of all of his roles and that may be the best way to think of him in real life as movie roles are narrow in focus and often don't reach the complexities of a person in real life.

[butterscotchgreer]

aaaaaawwww april you are being modest again.

 

dan,

 

i know you didnt mean it to be in a negative way. but when i get married i wouldnt want my husband cheating on me even if it is hard to say no, it is hard for me to picture him as an old man falling for younger women easily. i just cant picture him like that for some reason, i just like picturing him in real life (when he was younger) as the sweet and innocent type who doesnt know how to shoot a gun and is completely oblivious to why little girls swoon over him by fanting. that is how i always pictured him up until he was in his fifties then i pictured him as a mix between Hanging Tree and friendly persuasion on a sweeter note. heehee!

 

Message was edited by: butterscotchgreer

[CoopfanDan]

Well then I won't spoil you own view you have on him Theresa I do know that regardless of what he was like he was a very liked person by all and may not have had a single enemy. Well I don't know about him and John Wayne but other than that everyone seemed to love him. Perhaps he was the most beloved actor in all of hollywood during his life. Since his death, he seems to have been forgotten by many but not by us.

[butterscotchgreer]

aaawwww dan your sweet.

 

i guess we all picture him differently on what he was like in real life, i must agree with you (again heehee) on that i dont think he had any enemies, i dont even think john wayne was his enemy.i have read quite a lot on their differences, but i dont think they hated each other. i cant think of any other actor beside gary and good ol' walter that were gentlemanly to everyone they knew in real life. they just had practically no enemies, and i think that is so gallant and picturesque!!!!!!

 

im willing to overlook that little detail of the black lists...heehee! i know you have this incredible dislike toward people who supported the blacklist thing, but walter really was gallant to everyone he met and knew in real life and i cant help but really love him.

[MissGoddess]

Theresa, don't forget Ronnie-baby Colman---he was a very sweet and gentlemanly person, too. In fact, it fascinates me that Benita Hume, after his death, could marry someone as completely opposite to Ronald as George Sanders!

 

I know I sound like I have blinkers on but i just think people in general in Hollywood (and elsewhere) back then were nicer all around. Being kind and decent counted and you soon heard about it if you weren't. Not like now, when everyone is so "free" to be mean because they have to "express themselves". Sheesh!

[CoopfanDan]

There are far to many people that supported all that blacklisting to hold anything against most of them. Walter just happened to be president of the actors union back then and would have had to go along with whatever was voted on. An interesting fact I found on the Abbott and Costello bonus extras for the TV show was that Lou Costello made everyone sign a paper pledging their alligeince to the country. One would not and he was fired on the spot. There was a great deal of misguided partrotism back then that turned many to support the dreaded blacklisting thing so I can't hold that against all of them. I will still hold it it against Wayne though since he was against Gary and the High Noon set. My own personal blacklist of owning or watching any John Wayne movies still stands.

[coopsgirl]

*Well then I won't spoil you own view you have on him Theresa*

 

I will He had an affair with Audrey Hepburn while they were filming Love in the Afternoon. He was 56 and she was 28. Of course it wasn't long after that, that Gary converted to Catholocism and changed his ways. I don't know that she was the last, but she was probably one of the last leading ladies he had a fling with.

[butterscotchgreer]

ronnie-baby-colman, i indubidably cant forget about him! okay so they are the only three gentlemen in hollywood. heehee! i couldnt even comprehend the fact on marrying george sanders after marrying ronnie colman. heehee!

 

*I know I sound like I have blinkers on but i just think people in general in Hollywood (and elsewhere) back then were nicer all around. Being kind and decent counted and you soon heard about it if you weren't. Not like now, when everyone is so "free" to be mean because they have to "express themselves". Sheesh!*

 

you are so right and that is so true april!!

[CoopfanDan]

I can't picture Greer marrying that nerdy actor that played her son on Mrs miniver but that is a topic for another discusstion on another board. I am sure with Walter and Ronald already taken that she was running out of choices.

[butterscotchgreer]

angie sis,

 

you cant ruin my view on gary, im on your side!! heehee! i couldnt stand that he had an affair with audrey also. i loved that he converted to catholicism toward the end. that is my religion. heehee!

[butterscotchgreer]

heehee! dan, i cant picture them married in real life either in point of fact, but you are probably right, lets continue that on another thread or on my forum. heehee! he was real mean to her and i dont like him for that.

 

i really wished that her and walter were married in real life when i first got into her. thats before i knew he was already married. heehee!

[coopsgirl]

*you cant ruin my view on gary*

 

I know, I just had to mess with ya! My mom was picking on me the other day saying if Gary was a modern movie star and he was running around with all these women, I would turn on him. She's probably right about that too. Of course he had so many other wonderful qualities and was so talented, I don't know if I would or not. I know it's hypocritical, but I can't help it. I love Gary and nothing can change it!!

[butterscotchgreer]

that is interesting about abbott and costello, i absolutely love them and didnt know that about what lou costello did. wow!!

i was never a particular fan of john wayne anyway, but i do like a couple of his films. i just dont like movies where the manly guys force women and slep them and spank them to do things. it is kinda disturbing to me and john wayne and clark gable were the kings of doing that.

[butterscotchgreer]

heehee! angie youre cracking me up.

 

i wouldnt lose interest in him...of course he isnt a modern day star so i cant really say that, and im probably being hypocritical too, but i just had to say it. i love him no matter what.......what were we talking about? heehee!

[jemnyc]

Angie mentioned that GC had an affair with Audrey Hepburn in

the discussion about GC and younger women ... regarding this:

 

While this is in no way an attempt to justify GC's epic womanizing,

one of the fascinating results of researching GC/Hem is that I was

unable to uncover a single instance of a woman resenting GC

post-affair. I tried to dig beneath the stories, not so much looking

for dirt, but just trying to find a truth from the woman's POV.

 

Back in the late 80s, way before ever thinking about GC/Hem, spent

some time with Fay Wray after she'd moved to NYC. Just happened

to connect at Elaine's, where there's quite a bit of bouncing from

table to table. GC never had an affair with Wray, and she was open

that it was her regret. She told me that in her apartment, she had

what she called the Gary Cooper closet. In it, she had all sorts of

mementoes, photos, GC stuff. It was her own personal homage to

a man she adored.

 

Jean Arthur, whom I never met, was quoted after GC's death: "If Gary

had married me, he'd still be alive." Never sure just what she meant

by this, that she'd have gotten him to quit smoking, perhaps? But

given current speculation on her sexuality, this is a rather amazing

statement. And even more amazing about GC!

 

Audrey Hepburn never lost her affection for GC. He was one of

her very favorite people. She had been a trifle uneasy about doing

Love/Afternoon because of the terrible way she'd been treated by

Bogart on Sabrina.

 

In talking with many women out in Idaho, who knew him well --

some biblically, some not -- they spoke so highly of him, and

these were women who'd known all the Hollywood celebs who

flocked to Sun Valley, all the phonies and tricksters ... but it was

GC they remembered with the most fondness. And none, nary a

single woman, expressed distaste or disgust or criticism of

his philandering.

 

Ingrid Bergman, an almost two year affair, never had a negative word for him.

 

Sophia Loren and Anita Ekberg, whom he had flings with in the

mid-fifties, always speak highly of him.

 

So many others ...

 

As Pat Neal told me once, GC was the first man she'd met who

actually listened to her, whose eyes weren't roving over her shoulder,

who maintained eye contact as she spoke and as he spoke, who

laughed and chuckled when she said something vaguely humorous.

 

Hemingway, four times married, was openly critical of GC's womanizing.

But this may have been envy. Gregory Hemingway told me of being at

the Metropolitan Museum one morning, the Impressionist wing, with

his father and GC. Place was empty, they were chatting about this and

that painting. Then, slowly, women began appearing, as if they'd heard

a bugle call. Soon, the entire room was filled with women, and they were

crowding around GC, not Hemingway -- who had his own masculine

charisma. Gregory said it was truly amazing, especially how gracious

GC was, gentle flirting, signing autographs, exchanging pleasantries.

The morning for GC and Hem was ruined, but GC never once expressed

any dismay. posed for photos, Gregory said this went on for fully an

hour. And then GC, Hem and Gregory left.

 

GC and Robert Mitchum were good friends. Chris, Mitchum's son, who

looks exactly like his father, told me that his father once said that

you always knew when GC arrived at a party. Mitchum said that no

matter who was there, Ty Power, Gable, Colman, whomever, once

GC ambled in, women would automatically desert whatever man

they were talking with and gravitate to GC. Mitchum told Chris that

the best way to meet women was to hang with GC.

 

Again, not a defense ...

[CoopfanDan]

Great stuff as always on Cooper's likabiltiy.

 

I didn't realize that icons radio ran both part 1 and part 2 of the western series the same week as I was going to listen to them both tonight. I have them both downloading to my hard drive right now.

 

I am looking forward to the greta garbo show tonight:

 

"This Sunday, 9/23, at 8 pm, ET, Scott Reisfield discusses his great-aunt?s life and career with ICONS radio hosts, Stephen Bogart and John Mulholland. With personal anecdotes, Greta Garbo comes alive, as artist and woman."

 

http://www.modaentertainment.com/ICONS-Radio-30/ICONS-Radio-30.html

 

In my attempts to try to record and collect all of Clark Gables 30's movies, it looks like I recorded my first Greta Garbo movie on TCM in Susan Lenox her fall and rise (1931). It also looks like Clark Gable may have set a record for most movies in one year as I count 13 on imdb for 1931 alone. He must not have slept to much in 1931.

[coopsgirl]

Great stuff John, thanks so much for sharing. That's so neat that you got to just hang out with Fay Wray. I really like her a lot too and it just cracked me up about her Gary Cooper closet. That hit awfully close to home as I have pics of him covering a whole wall of my closet. It's a good place to hang up stuff that just doesn't really fit anywhere else . Of course I have an awful lot of Gary stuff in my livingroom too including nearly a dozen movie stills, reproduction movie posters, books and old movie magazines. I'm becoming addicted to collecting old Photoplays and other movie mags and Kim and Theresa also have great collections too, much more than me, but I'm getting there. Ebay is a wonderful thing - ha!

 

It's nice to hear stories about him being so nice to the fans too. I can't imagine how weird it must feel to have people clamoring around you wanting your autography or a pic with you but I love the people who are polite about it b/c without those fans they don't have a job.

[FrankGrimes]

I'd like to respond to more of the comments posted here the past day and a half but I've got a hot date tonight... with a football game. Let's just say, when it comes to the NFL, this Keystoner turns Texan, y'all.

 

Hi, John -- "My list of favorite Coop films is sometimes in flux, but many times Man of the West has been at the top." Miss Goddess

 

Me, too!

 

You keep talkin' my language. I've only seen a handful of Coop's films to date, but I'm thinking it's going to be hard to top *High Noon* and *Man of the West* with me. I'll keep looking, though.

 

Your (and Miss G's) comments on *Man of the West* has seduced a reply out of me.

 

I consider *Man of the West* to be a film about "having something to live and die for." For the first time in Link's (Coop) life, he has found this "something." He has a wife, two kids, and a sense of responsibility to his community. It's no longer just about him. That was his irresponsible past. A man often needs a woman to realize these things. Anthony Mann's noirs and westerns often feature hardened men whose lives are altered or affected by women they love and care for. It's not a gun that wields the greatest power over a man in Mann's films, it's a woman. Yes, Mann is a filmmaker who connects with me.

 

*Man of the West* winks at us (the audience) at the very outset of the film. Everything seems so very innocent and innocuous, but the table is being subtlety set. We are being told things that we are not ready to understand. The film starts with Link riding into a strange town. He's curious and nervous. This is new to him. What's the first thing Link does in this city? He helps a small, older man carrying a ladder all by himself. This is the "new" Link. He's ready to help out his fellow man, a stranger. The rest of the men just walk on by. They represent the "old" Link.

 

Link then sees Billie (Julie London) walk out. He notices her beauty but he doesn't fall all over her. Again, this is the "new" Link. Committed men are not oblivious to beautiful women. Quite the contrary. However, their notices of beauty are often used as reminders of the beauty of "their" woman. It's a longing not a lusting.

 

Billie: "And thank you for being the only man in the Longhorn Palace that never made an indecent proposal."

 

This line is directed at Willie, not Link, but we know it will eventually apply to Link, as well. The irony is, many women want the indecent proposals to come from the guys who don't offer them.

 

After eating at the Longhorn Palace, Link moseys on over to the stable. He needs a place to keep his horse for a few days. Link then washes up and shaves. This is symbollic of him "washing off his past" and "cleaning up his image." He's a new man.

 

Mann then provides us with one of the most symbollic gestures in the film. Link takes the money from his belt and places it in his bag. He then places the gun on top of the money and straps up the bag. The money represents his "new life" and his gun will be (and only) used as his protection for this new life.

 

Link's next stop is the train station. This is where Mann gives us a peek into Link's current emotional state. He's scared. Link has never seen a train before and he's quite nervous about being around it. It's why he jumps back when the steam shoots at him. He's very much on edge. Link is headed in the right direction but he's very unsure about himself as he sets out on his new journey. Plenty of self-doubt.

 

At this point, Link's ugly past rears its head. A man confronts Link, asking him if a man was a friend of his and where he's from. He then asks him his name and Link tells him a lie. Link is hiding. The man eventually asks him if he's ever heard of a man named, "Dock Tobin." Once again, Link lies. We don't know this at the time, though. Link is committed to moving on, but will his past allow him to do so?

 

Mann will further illustrate Link's feelings of nervousness about the future while also showing us his fear of the past potentially ruining his better life ahead when he takes his seat on the train. The scene of the very tall Coop/Link trying to squeeze into the tight-fitting seat on the train is nothing but symbolism. It's played as cute comedy, but its meaning is far deeper. Does Link fit in this "new world"? Can he make it? As he's trying to get comfortable in his "new world", he looks out the window and sees his "old life" staring him in the face. He turns his back on this image. Yes, he's committed. He's worried, though. He flashes a nervous smile to the older lady sitting across the aisle from him.

 

I believe *Man of the West* is a film that needs to be seen multiple times to fully understand. There's no way I could comprehend the beginning of the film in my first viewing. I can appreciate the beginning now, though.

 

I know many people enjoy the prince and princess fairytale-type of romances that are presented without the hidden messages. Those tales of love are far more accessible. I'm someone who likes a deeper kind of love. You may not always see this love with your eyes, but you better believe you can feel it taking over your body. Mann's westerns and noirs often project such energy. The surface levels are tough, but if you peel back a layer or two, you're gonna find out that Mann is offering you a whole lot more than a hug and kiss.

 

Hi, Miss G(ary) -- Maybe it's my view of Cooper being primarily a "hero" in his films but I never thought of his character, Link, in Man of the West as being a killer. In his past, yes. We all are imperfect and for some, the primary struggle they have is with violent behavior. In a world where a man had to fight to stay alive, I'm sure violence was a knee-jerk reaction that was hard for men to lose. But by the time Link boards the train in the opening of MotW, the west has been pretty much "civilized", or is getting there. Link's inner humanity, that which caused him to walk away from "Pop" and his ghoulish ken, is uppermost at this point.

 

Very nicely said. Link wishes he were done killin', but his past and fate would not let him be. He couldn't hide anymore, especially since he had something to live for. Now what kind of films present stories like this? Yup. Mann brought noir to westerns, hence my affinity to Mann's westerns.

 

What happens later, what is fascinating is watching the struggle Gary shows of a man who finds his hard-won civility slipping off and the old, violent ways creeping back. But Gary in the end only kills to end the cycle of violence that Lee J. Cobb is perpetuating. I'm not justifyinig that---but I find it hard to judge him either, especially in light of what that old buzzard did to Julie London's character.

 

Well, aren't we on a roll? Link may have been a killer in his previous life, but he did not want to be one anymore. Fate forced his hand. He had to do what he had to do... to get to Good Hope.

 

One other point, Arthur O'Connell's character jumps in front of Gary to take the bullet to save his life. I'll never forget how astonished I was by that character twist. It's fairly often in movies that the evil are shown redeeming themselves, but the merely craven? Almost never, except in Mann's and Ford's films.

 

Hat trick. You're right, it's very rare to see characters like Sam (Arthur O'Connell) taking bullets for the hero in film. I believe Sam fed off Link's nobility. I've often found that people will feed off of the kindness of others. Not everyone, but many. Sam only cared about himself at first, but Link's willingness to stand up for him and Billie made a big impression on him. It only takes one person to change a person.

[cashette]

Hi CoopsGirl, I bet that you are watching the same game that I am Houston playing St. Louis on ESPN2. Maybe I have been in the Twilight Zone, but I have never read that Audrey and Gary had an affair while making "Love In The Afternoon". A few months ago I finished reading "Enchantment" Donald Spoto`s biography of Audrey Hepburn. He wrote of other affairs that Audrey had but nothing was mentioned about a fling with Gary. Mel Ferrer was evidentally not in Paris the whole time while the movie was being shot.

[metsfan]

[jemnyc]

Yup GC and Audrey Hepburn were an item during the making of LITA.

Not sure why Spoto ignored this, and the actual filming of LITA, in

general. Perhaps because Spoto does not hold GC in particularly

high regard?

 

Nice pic!