Any Gary Cooper Fans?

[jemnyc]

Hey, Frank -- Must be feeling nice, Cowboys stomping the Bears,

sitting atop NFC East. Getting Parcels to walk, that the key? he's

now being rumored as the next GM of the Giants ... talk about

the beast that wouldn't die?!?

 

Terrific stuff on Man/West. Have to watch it again, soon, and see

an awful lot I missed. Thanks, you make it even richer.

 

Since I believe that Link and Billie have slept together, I find the

end rather grey; grey and extraordinarily bleak. Even Unforgiven

takes us back to the farm and offers a coda that Munny took the

children and had another life. It doesn't end as he rides out of

town in the driving night rain, knowing he has become what he

had run so hard from.

 

Man/West has Link, at the end, wanted by the law, and very likely

he could be hung for his earlier crimes. And even as Billie says

that she knows nothing can come of their relationship, Cooper's

expression of emotional devastation lets us know that he is a

very conflicted man.

 

The shooting script opened with Link and his wife and kids as he

is about to leave to hire the teacher. He's seen with a few of the

townspeople. It's only three pages, but it forces you to be aware

of this side of his life from then on. Rose never said why Mann had

cut the sequence.

 

Again, thanks for the cogent reading on Man/West. Since I think

it Mann's masterpiece, richer and deeper than the Stewart westerns

(which I very much like!), I'm always happy to see good thoughts

on it. Critics and educators seem to to concentrate on the Mann/Stewart

ouevre. A friend who teaches and writes about film -- also does a

lot of audio commentary work for Criterion dvds -- says this is

because they're basically lazy, and it's easy to teach and write

about a batch of films.

[jemnyc]

Angie -- That's funny, you and Fay Wray and your GC closets. Wonder if

perhaps that's not as uncommon as you'd think? Wray wasn't at all

hesitant about discussing it, hell, she brought it up! We weren't even

talking about GC.

 

I agree that without the fans, where would they be? Fifth billed, below

the title, in second rate films.

[jemnyc]

Dan -- Regarding Part II of The Western, we hadn't planned on doing this,

but the listenership and response was so extraordinary, just overwhelming,

that we rushed Part II to Wednesday night. Some of the e-mails were

quite vitriolic because of our strong negative criticism about

the current 3:10 To Yuma. And how boring the original was, b&w, who ever

heard of Glenn Ford, no action, no FX, etc.

 

Now, later in October, Meir and I are going to natter about spy thrillers,

from Mata Hari up through this great Bourne trilogy. Be a good chance

for me to get in some good words about Cloak & Dagger, which as you

know from our e-mails, I think a very underrated film, even with the

final reel deleted.

 

You quoted here on this thread from Glenn Erickson's good piece on his

DVD Savant page about the butchering by WB. He left out the line which

really led to the whole reel being cut. This line really frightened the government

and led to the government demanding the final reel be cut:

 

"Peace? There's no peace. It's year one of the Atomic Age

and God have mercy on us all! ... if we think we can wage

other wars without destroying ourselves."

 

Cooper's character, Jesper, says this after they've come out of the

cave and realize that the group has escaped with the atomic bomb

secrets. The U.S. had believed -- stupidly, naively -- that it could keep

the A-Bomb to itself. Cooper's line here was predicting just the

opposite. And, as it turns out, the truth.

 

I've often wondered if, after cutting the final reel, WB didn't insert

extra footage of Cooper/Palmer when they're hiding out in her

apartment. the scene goes on far too long, without telling us anything

we don't already knw. They did this, I believe, so that the film

wouldn't appear so short, with the final reel now deleted.

 

It's still a very good film. Better than Lang's other WW II thrillers --

Ministry Of Fear (based on a terrific Graham Greene novel) and Man Hunt

(also based on a much better novel, Rogue Male) -- even though the

auteurist Lang crowd believes the opposite. I especially like how

Jesper screws up, he's an amateur, and isn't some superman hero.

I think the Bourne trilogy is magnificent, but Cooper's hero is the

exact antithesis of Jason Bourne.

 

It also has one of the most brutal fights ever filmed, so graphic that

it wouldn't be out of place in Eastern Promises, which has a brutal

fight in a Russian bathhouse. GC and Marc Lawrence (blacklisted

not long after Cloak & Dagger) fight in an outer lobby and doorway.

No Marquis of Queensbury rules here!

 

Cloak & Dagger is based, somewhat loosely, on Michael Burke's experiences

in the OSS. Michael Burke later went on to run Ringling Brothers and the

NY Yankees -- pre-Steinbrenner. Burke retired to Ireland and in his memoirs,

spoke highly of GC. They met during filming, and remained friends until

GC's death.

[MissGoddess]

****As Pat Neal told me once, GC was the first man she'd met who

actually listened to her, whose eyes weren't roving over her shoulder,

who maintained eye contact as she spoke and as he spoke, who

laughed and chuckled when she said something vaguely humorous.****

 

*That would make any woman fall like a ton of bricks. That is a powerful charisma.*

[MissGoddess]

So much good stuff here to respond to!

 

*John* Don't kill me but I'm the only one so far who has not listened to any of those mouth-watering radio shows on ICONS. It's been driving me crazy too, reading about all the wonderful things being discussed and not getting to enjoy it because my laptop at home doesn't have sufficient speaker capability. But guess what? This blonde just discovered that by plugging in my earphones I can listen to anything I want, clearly and beautifully!! I know, I know---it's so obvious how could I have only just thought of it---because I am totally computer-illiterate and so are most of the men I know and could have asked. Anyway, next weekend, hopefully, if I have the time, I'm going right away to the ICONS website and listen to as many shows as are available. I hope you guys make keep them available for a while.

 

I also want to chirp up and say I'm glad that is sounds like you and Mr. Bogie and others really speak out and say what you think on the shows (this, relating to the 3:10 to Yuma subject)---I admire that.

 

Regarding that statement by Coop's character in *Cloak and Dagger* that was deleted----I wish so much they hadn't done that. It actually would have, by that one simple, direct comment, have added so much more depth to his character and kept it from ending like a more typical propaganda film. That said, I still think it's highly underrated. But 50 minutes edited! My mind reels at all that lost, precious Gary Cooper footage!

 

It's funny, they save everything now and show it as "extras" on dvds---deleted scenes, bloopers, etc. Now that so much is not worth saving. But all that lost footage from a time when the quality was very high....it makes me nostalgiac.

 

John! You say Link and Billie slept together? When? In the barn? Really? I know she was trying hard to get him to (I mean, there she is in peril for her life and she loses no opportunity to show her pretty unmentionables to a handsome stranger---hee!) but I didn't think they actually did. And you have a more bleak take on the ending than I got from it. I hadn't thought of his being still a wanted man at the end and perhaps facing...gulp! Hanging! I took it as a rather happy ending in one sense, that he had saved his "new life" from being destroyed by the past and sorrowful in that he may actually have found a deeper love in Billie.

 

Now I have to watch this movie all over again because I missed every one of your points.

[MissGoddess]

"The irony is, many women want the indecent proposals to come from the guys who don't offer them."

 

*Ha! Smart man* .

 

 

"I believe Sam fed off Link's nobility. I've often found that people will feed off of the kindness of others. Not everyone, but many. Sam only cared about himself at first, but Link's willingness to stand up for him and Billie made a big impression on him. It only takes one person to change a person."

 

*That is so true---and why the so-called "Golden Rule" is the one to live by, as best we can. Sam was the sort of person who mostly "doesn't count" in the general scheme, in life or in movies. Except Anthony Mann's movies. And Ford's. And Lubitsch's* .

 

*You noticed (and John, too) so many things I never picked up on. It gives me good reason (as if I needed any) to watch MotW yet again* .

 

P.S. So you're a Cowboy (NFL) fan? Might it interest you to know I almost had one for a step-dad. Yep. My mom dated one. I never remember his name---I can ask her again, but he was cute and she had his picture hanging up in our house for a while after they stopped seeing eachother. I tease her to this day for letting him get away because he was crazy for her.

[cashette]

Spoto wrote that Audrey had affairs with the screenwriter of "The Nun`s Story", William Holden , Albert Finney, and Ben Gazzara. Her marriage to Mel Ferrer had always been rocky. Audrey finally found happiness with Robert Wolders. Rob has relatives that live in Irondequoit which is a suburb of Rochester,NY. In the early 1990`s I worked with a lady who who was in a exclusive woman`s dress shop in Pittsford,NY, and Audrey came into browse. She also liked to shop at the former Irondequoit Mall. Shortly before Audrey was taken ill, She given a lifetime achievement award frome the George Eastman House in October 1993.

[cashette]

Hi MetsFan, Yes, I am very happy that Cleveland won the central division for the first time since 2001. The main reason is the two c`s C.C. Sabithita and Fausta Carmona. The Indians offense did start hitting better after the All Star break. The trade for Kenny Lofton was good, and Joe Borowski saved over 40 games. Jacobs Fiel is a beautiful ballpark, and my father will be happy in heaven that they finally came around. I have watched some of the Mets games especially when tom Glavine pitches. It hurts when the bullpens loses the game. The Yankees need to get rid of Giambi, Farnsworth, and Bruney. Mariano has over thirty saves, but he is shaky. Joe Torre would be smart and retire after this year. His contract is up. I am impressed with Willie Randolph.A Rod would be foolish to leave, but players get greedy. I read the report that the Chicago Cubs are interested. Good luck to your Mets in the playoffs.

[butterscotchgreer]

heehee! john that story about fay wray and her closet full of gary was so funny. me and angie were talking on the phone and she told me about that, b/c i hadnt been on here yesterday to read it, and we both started laughing so hard to that. it makes all of us girls on here feel normal since fay also had a little shrine of gary in her closet....so do we. heehee! i found that so amusing! at least me and angie werent the only ones to have gary in our closet.

 

it makes you wonder how many other of the women he had affairs with such as patricia neal, or even the other leading ladies such as helen hayes who regretted never having an affair with him, had pics of him in their closets too. heehee! im sure we wouldnt be the least bit surpised if they actually did.

[jemnyc]

Didn't know that she'd received an award from Eastman House.

Nice to hear. That's funny, to think of Audrey Hepburn wandering

upstate NY.

 

My agent, who produced both Breakfast At Tiffany's

and Robin & Marian (and The Hanging Tree, too, his first), holds

Audrey Hepburn in such high esteem. Utterly wonderful human

being. In fact, it's Cooper and Hepburn whom he cites as the two

most memorable and enchanting people he ever worked with.

[jemnyc]

Yes, I suspect that it's not so unheard of as we might imagine.

And Fay Wray said it without an ounce of embarrassment.

 

As I remember, she also announced it during the GC Cenntennial

weekend at MOMA, in 2001. But I may be wrong on that! There'd

been cocktails (Heinekens or Fosters) before the event, and

maybe I wasn't hearing so clear.

[butterscotchgreer]

*i know many people enjoy the prince and princess fairytale-type of romances that are presented without the hidden messages. Those tales of love are far more accessible. I'm someone who likes a deeper kind of love. You may not always see this love with your eyes, but you better believe you can feel it taking over your body. Mann's westerns and noirs often project such energy. The surface levels are tough, but if you peel back a layer or two, you're gonna find out that Mann is offering you a whole lot more than a hug and kiss.*

 

hey frankie!!!! isnt it a loverly day today?!!

 

that was very nicely put, frankie. i havent seen many mann westerns and noirs, but i have seen a few. i never thought of them that way before, but when you mentioned it, i kinda see what you are projecting to. i must confess that im more of a prince and princess fairytale sort of sap, but i also like other movies with that deeper, sort of suspenceful type of love that you cant see too well on the surface, but once you look for it, you can in a sense. but love isnt the only thing you find there, you are right, they give you so much more to go on besides the mushy stuff, although i mostly prefer that. heehee!. they give you a lot of on the edge of your seat stuff. im sure you love those kind of movies where you cant wait to see how it turns out and you can never see whats coming around the corner. that is so cool!

[butterscotchgreer]

i dont think i couldve said that with an ounce of embarrasment either. im proud of my little "shrine" in my closet as im sure she was too. heehee!

[butterscotchgreer]

i dont think i couldve said that with an ounce of embarrasment either. im proud of my little "shrine" in my closet as im sure she was too. heehee!

[jemnyc]

Hey, Miss G:

 

I started copying/pasting your comments, but I kept bolluxing it up, so this shall be free form and on memory. Apologies.

 

Yup, everything still there. Yeah, it's been kind of amazing, the response about our response to 3:10 II. Astonishing, really. And depressing, actually.

 

I agree about Cooper's statement which WB cut, it would have given a depth and resonance that is now missing.

 

About the 50 minutes which was cut, Miss G, that was cut from Souls At Sea. I would guess that

Cloak & Dagger had around 13 minutes, one reel. Either way, a shame about both. And you're so right, hadn't thought of that, today all of that would be a part of dvd extras.

 

I could well be looking at the glass half empty concerning Man/West's ending. It's just that he says very little on the wagon, only about what will happen to her, and nothing about his future. Which, with the wanted posters now up again, means that he's a sitting duck for lawmen and bounty hunters. And in returning to wife and kids, he's bringing his newly resurfaced past not just to the family, but to all the townspeople. I would think that this weighs heavily on him. I also think that in going to bed with Billie, he understands another part of his old self has appeared.

 

It's such a rich film, as we agreed earlier, Shakespearean in its plotting, reaching for far more than the typical studio film. And Frank gave me so much more to look for in his analysis.

 

Here's a link to a review of Man/West, from dvd savant, Glenn Ericson. This is from 1999, which surprised me -- eight years!. I e-mailed Glenn about the review and we've since become e-mailers.

 

http://www.dvdtalk.com/dvdsavant/s38manwest.html

[coopsgirl]

Yes I watched the Astros let another victory get away thanks to light 'em up Lidge. I swear that man is gonna put me on blood pressure medication!!

 

I'm rooting for the Indians in the playoffs b/c they had such a great season and have gotten very little recognition for it.

[MissGoddess]

50 more minutes of *Souls at Sea* would be even better because I LOVED that movie when I finally saw it for the first time a few weeks ago. It's interesting that you pointed out the scenes on the slave ship were the ones deleted because that incident is actually what I felt needed expanding upon---it seemed like the movie was building up to something and suddenly we were back on dry land. Still, it's a rolicking good movie and as a relatively new Frances Dee fan, a pleasant romance. I don't think Raft in any way stole the show from Gary, but I do find myself liking him more than I do in most of his other movies. However, every time I see him I am embarrassed to admit I cannot get Carole Lombard's (extremely personal) comment out of my head!

 

Thank you for that link---I am going to "bookmark" it.

 

Oh, and John, I missed the "wanted posters" in Man of the West---that throws a completely different light on what Link's future may have become.

 

Message was edited by: MissGoddess

[butterscotchgreer]

*About the 50 minutes which was cut, Miss G, that was cut from Souls At Sea. I would guess that

Cloak & Dagger had around 13 minutes, one reel. Either way, a shame about both. And you're so right, hadn't thought of that, today all of that would be a part of dvd extras.*

 

i would love to see those 50 minutes from souls at sea and the 15 from cloak and dagger!!! oh my goodness that would make my day for sure. i love souls at sea esp, it is such a great movie!!!

[MissGoddess]

The French mime and clown Marcel Marceau has passed away at age 83. I mention it here only because his extraordinarily universal "language", like that of the great silent comedians, is mentioned in the article as having influenced Gary Cooper. I can see how, since as an actor he predominanlty relied on facial expression and his eyes to convey thought and emotion, as opposed to dialogue.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,2175737,00.html

[metsfan]

Cashette, I hope Pronk does a lot of damage in the playoffs. Coopsgirl, is it true that your sugar britches will be moved to the backup spot next year? Tough loss last night but I'm sure your thoughts of Gary Cooper will fix the agony. Frank, you and my brother are rejoicing over the Cowboys' perfect record. I enjoyed the days of Emmitt Smith, Troy Aikman, and Michael Irvin.

 

I never heard of Audrey and Gary having a fling but the info everyone has provided is interesting.

[coopsgirl]

"Sugarbritches" has said he wouldn't mind going to a back up role in order to give more time to one of the younger catchers and also act as a mentor to him. I think it's a great idea as good catchers are becoming harder to find. And yes thoughts of Gary always perk me up!!

[jemnyc]

**** it makes you wonder how many other of the women he had affairs with such as patricia neal, or even the other leading ladies such as helen hayes who regretted never having an affair with him, had pics of him in their closets too. heehee! im sure we wouldnt be the least bit surpised if they actually did****

 

Funny you should mention that!

 

In her apartment, nice view, overlooking the East River, Pat Neal has a work study, and it is jammed with pix of her and GC, newspaper headlines on GC, mementoes, etc. May not be in a closet, but the spirit remains the same.

[coopsgirl]

That's both sweet and sad about Pat Neal and her collection of Gary stuff. There's one line from Nevada where Gary's sidekick and him are talking about William Powell's character and his way with the ladies in the movie. He says to Gary "It's unfair for one man to have such fatal power over women." That line always cracks me up as it certainly applies to Gary.

 

Regarding Man of the West, I never even thought that Link and Billie slept together. I'll sure watch that film differently the next time.

[jemnyc]

[/bThat's both sweet and sad about Pat Neal and her collection of Gary stuff./b]

 

Well put, Angie. So true. However, the woman enjoys herself, still gets a hoot out of life. Give her a call in the afternoon, suggest a bite out that evening, and bam! You're on.

 

She's still with it, for the most part.

 

Once, we shot (what a clumsy way to put that we interviewed her on camera) her for The Fountainhead, WB had hired us to do the Sgt. York dvd doc (which we did) and The Fountainhead. I kind of blew it by saying I didn't much care for behind-the-scenes docs (which they already knew, since we did York only if we could stray beyond the film itself; they reluctantly agreed), but I wanted to do some other things with Fountainhead. They hesitated, but we went ahead and shot Pat Neal, just in case. She was a trifle uncertain in some of her responses. I was uneasy about forging ahead. But she took a glass of brandy, and then a second. And she started whipping out the answers like a teenager! Really amazing. Alas, WB decided not to spring for a new dvd Fountainhead doc and picked up a cheapie already floating around out of Canada.

 

But that night, after the interview, several of us went out to dinner, Pat included. She had a couple of drinks, big dinner, seems to me we plowed out of the restaurant after 1 am.

 

A truly remarkable and admirable woman.

[CoopfanDan]

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