Any Gary Cooper Fans?

[coopsgirl]

I'm not a real big fan of Pat as an actress (she was good, just not my cup of tea) but I do have a lot of respect for her as a person. She's been through a lot of hardships in her life; in love with a man she couldn't have, one of her children died at a young age, and all those strokes in her early 40s. Man just one of those things happens to someone and they could easily just give up and find themselves in all kinds of trouble. You have to respect someone who went through all that and still came out with her head held high.

[coopsgirl]

Here's a pic I found from Good Sam.

 

 

Here's one from Cowboy and The Lady.

 

 

This one is just a promo pic.

 

 

This one is from Distant Drums.

 

 

Here's another publicity shot with that beautiful smile.

 

[FrankGrimes]

Before I get to my comments, I just want to tell everyone who has talked about *Cloak and Dagger* the past few days that I've been avoiding your words on the film. I've had my hands over my eyes, saying, "la, la, la, la, la." I will read them once I watch the film, though. I'm glad to see conversation on the film.

 

Hi, John -- Hey, Frank -- Must be feeling nice, Cowboys stomping the Bears,

sitting atop NFC East. Getting Parcels to walk, that the key? he's

now being rumored as the next GM of the Giants ... talk about

the beast that wouldn't die?!?

 

Yes, my "hot date" was quite a surprise. I thought the Cowboys would win, but I didn't think they would do it so easily. I loved your "the beast that wouldn't die" comment. Parcells turned the Cowboys around in terms of talent, so I believe he would make an excellent GM for the Giants.

 

Terrific stuff on Man/West. Have to watch it again, soon, and see

an awful lot I missed. Thanks, you make it even richer.

 

That's a very nice compliment, John. I've been just as inspired by your words on many different Coop films but, more importantly, on Coop himself. Dan and his Coop Angels are the ones who have opened the Coop door for me. I've been a little hesitant to enter, but I've decided to do so by pursuing the Coop films that I think may be my speed first. I was going to see *Man of the West* at some point because of Anthony Mann. I was pushed towards it quicker because of Dan and those Coop Angels.

 

The shooting script opened with Link and his wife and kids as he

is about to leave to hire the teacher. He's seen with a few of the

townspeople. It's only three pages, but it forces you to be aware

of this side of his life from then on. Rose never said why Mann had

cut the sequence.

 

I'm very thankful we never see Link's wife and kids for a couple of reasons. First off, we the audience would be fully aware of Link's personal situation right from the start. This takes the mystery of the man away from the film. It also removes some of the power behind Link and Billie's scene in the barn.

 

Link: I found something better.

 

Billie is completely interested in Link. He's a man like no other she has met. He's a man who actually cares about her, even if it's on an impersonal level. She wants to take it to a personal level, though. Her first chance to do this is in the barn the morning after their night of horror. The scene is surely set for fireworks; she's lying in the hay with nothing on but her undergarments. Link and her openly talk about themselves to each other. She's feeling especially comfortable with him. He then tells her that he has a wife and two kids. You'd think Link's words about loving his wife would dampen Billie's desire for Link, but it's done the opposite. She longs to be his wife in his new life. As she says about Link's wife, "she's lucky." The scene ends with Billie sitting up, hoping for a kiss. Will Link give in to his temptations? No. "You better get dressed" are his words to her.

 

The other reason why I believe not seeing the wife and kids is better is because I believe it's more representative of the horrible act of adultery. Sadly, the spouse and kids are seen as faceless entities in an affair. I think *Man of the West* really gives us an idea of the temptations that a man away from his family can face.

 

Since I believe that Link and Billie have slept together, I find the

end rather grey; grey and extraordinarily bleak. Even Unforgiven

takes us back to the farm and offers a coda that Munny took the

children and had another life. It doesn't end as he rides out of

town in the driving night rain, knowing he has become what he

had run so hard from.

 

I'm with Miss G and Coop's Girl on this one. In fact, I'm pretty darn sure Link never slept with Billie. I think the film is all about commitment, trust, and keeping promises. If Link had slept with Billie, he would have broken one of his promises.

 

The only time where Link could have slept with Billie is their first night together, but his line to her at the end of that scene is, "you better try to get some sleep." Keep in mind, she was in her undergarments because she was forced to disrobe in the prior scene. She and Link return to the barn and she has her dress in her arms.

 

The other strong indicator that Link and Billie never slept together is when Julie says the following to him in the wagon:

 

You know, it's funny, Link, the last two days you've lost everything you ever lived for... and I found something I wanted all my life. {She rests her head on his left hand.} I love touching you. But what hurts is, I can't keep what I found. Can I? Can I, Link?

 

That's my favorite dialogue in the film. It's beautiful.

 

At the end of this scene, Link motions like he wants to stroke Billie's hair with his free right hand, just to let her know that he deeply cares for her. He stops short of doing this. Why? Because he doesn't want to confuse her, lead her on. I also think he does it because he knows he could be further tempted if he does so. He knew exactly where the line was and he never stepped over it.

 

I guess the irony of all ironies is that Coop is playing the very faithful husband role in *Man of the West*. He never gives in to his temptations. I like that.

 

I also want to agree with Miss G about the ending. I don't think it's a bleak one at all. I think it's a very redemptive one. Link has finally put his past behind him. He's free. For the first time in his life, he's free. The future looks awfully bright for Link.

 

Billie: I never loved anybody or anything in my whole life before. I always wondered what it felt like... now I know. I know there's no hope for us. I wouldn't change this feeling, not for anything.

 

That's my second favorite bit of dialogue in the film. In fact, it's one of the best lines of dialogue to finish off a film that I've heard. Very beautiful.

 

I know Miss Goddess (and I think some others) has mentioned she wished Link and Billie had ended up together. I'm thinking this is because many women who haven't found love yet associate with Billie. Those women who have found love should really appreciate Link's strength to fend off temptation and stay true.

 

I do want to clean up one thing from my prior post on *Man of the West*. The person who confronted Link with questions at the train station was not just a "man", as I called him, but a "law man." He's wearing a badge. The law man thinks he recognizes Link from somewhere, and I'm sure his suspicions were correct, since Link's past is one of criminal deeds. Link's fears of being caught are the reasons why he lies to the law man. He's scared that his past is going to catch up with him sooner or later. Well, he was right.

 

Again, thanks for the cogent reading on Man/West. Since I think

it Mann's masterpiece, richer and deeper than the Stewart westerns

(which I very much like!), I'm always happy to see good thoughts

on it. Critics and educators seem to to concentrate on the Mann/Stewart

ouevre. A friend who teaches and writes about film -- also does a

lot of audio commentary work for Criterion dvds -- says this is

because they're basically lazy, and it's easy to teach and write

about a batch of films.

 

I still like *Winchester '73* and *The Naked Spur* a little more than *Man of the West* but it's very close. I consider those two films to be more entertaining, but I also believe *Man of the West* is the richest and deepest of the three. I completely agree with you on that point. It's really a brilliant film all the way around. A very unique western. I was pleasantly surprised to see how great the film truly is.

 

Billie: How could you have been with him? You're not like him.

 

Link: I was. There wasn't any difference at all.

[coopsgirl]

Here's a slideshow I made of using clips from Desire (1936).

 

 

 

Here's Gary's clip from Wings (1927).

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nR1qw9Yr_6I

[FrankGrimes]

Hi, Dan -- I also watched a movie on tcm the other day with shirley MacLaine that left a very big impression. It was titled Some Came Running with Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin. I would say that while she played the tramp she was one with a heart of gold and while certainly Frank and Dean were not good people in this movie (very gray) she was most certainly the heroin in this story for sure. I'm not sure if it would pass for film noir but everyone in this movie was very gray except for her. I loved Shirley MacLaine in this movie and in the Apartment and I think I really want to check her out in Can Can that was done around the same time. I am not a fan at all of her late works but these early movies showed me a great deal on her acting ability. When what Dean Martin refers to her as a Tramp I am in all favor of tramps like this in film as she just blew me away with the goodness that overflowed out her being in this one.

 

As you all know, if you miss a couple days in the Coop thread, you gotta swim through pages of replies. I really wanted to comment on *Some Came Running*. It's a great favorite of mine. It's one of the films I wish to see on DVD the most. I love the acting of all in this film, but especially Shirley MacLaine. It's easily my favorite MacLaine performance. What a film!

 

Also I would like to add that while the teacher Frank's love interest was a respectable teacher she had nothing on Shirley MacLaine character. I very much disliked the respectable teacher lady Martha Hyler when comparing her to Shirley MacLaine character. I am not sure if it was just Martha Hyler's acting ability that was terrible or just didn't like her character but Shirley MacLaine was the one to watch in this movie.

 

I actually enjoyed Martha's performance a lot. I thought she nailed the woman with high standards who was afraid to commit to a man who she thought wasn't good enough. Her many years without love made her more and more less trustworthy of men, especially a questionable character like Dave (Frank Sinatra). She had also lost her confidence as a woman to love and please a man. Yes, Martha's "Gwen" was fascinating to me. By the way, I believe Martha was very much in love with Dave but her heart kept telling her, "it just ain't right." Plus, I think she got emotionally scared. She was in over her head.

 

The scene where Dave and Martha first kiss is highly erotic. It's shown in silhouette. I just love that Dave takes the pins out of her hair. It symbolizes Martha letting go of her long repressed emotions. She's no longer "pent up." Oh, what a scene. It's one of my favorite kissing scenes in film. It really plays true.

 

 

Gwen (Martha Hyer): I don't want you to be in love with me. Don't be, please.

 

--

 

Ginnie (Shirley MacLaine): Oh, I'm very crazy about him, you see, Miss French. And this is the God's truth, I want him to have what he wants. Even if it means you instead of me.

 

--

 

Ginnie (Shirley MacLaine): Oh, but he ain't in love with me, Miss French. I wish he was. I'd give my right eye if he was. I never felt like this about nobody in my whole life. He just touches me and I fall apart. {She starts to cry.}

 

--

 

Gwen (Martha Hyer): I don't like your life. I don't like your thinking. I don't like the people you like. Now leave me alone... stay away from me!

 

Ouch. Poor Frankie.

 

--

 

Dave (Frank Sinatra): You don't have enough sense to come in out of the rain unless somebody leads you by the hand. That's only because you'd go anywhere with anybody.

 

Ouch! Thanks, Frankie.

 

--

 

Dave (Frank Sinatra): Look, I'm not in love with anybody.

 

Ginnie (Shirley MacLaine): Dave? Dave, be in love with me. {She starts crying} Ohh, I love you so much. I ain't never met anybody like you before in my whole life. Ohh, I love you so awful, awful much.

 

--

 

Bama (Dean Martin): I've got nothin' against, Ginnie, nothin' at all. But even she knows she's a pig."

 

Hey! That's not nice.

[FrankGrimes]

All the sports talk on this thread brought a smile to my face. Let's see, Parcells, Pronk, Sugarbritches, and a former Dallas Cowboy falling head over heels for Elke Sommer. Now that's entertainment.

 

Mrs. Cooper -- Did I scare you off? I hope not. I guess you're recharging.

 

No trap, just desperately searching for a new review that could give me another outlook on the film. And I assure you, Mr. Hopeless-Romantic-For-Femme-Fetales, I am always gentle.

 

I'm glad you're gentle. I'm gonna hold you to that. By the way, you don't think the combination of hopeless romantic and femme fatale is a deadly mix, do you? It seems like a perfect plan.

 

ButterscotchGreer -- i have watched many movies of rita hayworth, and marylin monroe, and ava gardner, and jean harlow, and all thor other sex goddesses, but i really dont see what the whole deal is with them. i cant stand seeing a woman throwing herself at a man in the sense that the yare being sexual about it. i HATE watching that, but thats just me. i think men and women can be just as attractive without taking their clothes off, or being sexual at all about it, granted i do like a few modern movies that arent exactly what you would call nonsexual. okay so we all have our weeknesses. heehee!

 

I must admit, I go for the women throwing themselves at men stuff. Sorry, that's me being a guy. Hey, at least I'm honest. Ava Gardner and Rita Hayworth are very interesting to me, especially Ava.

 

i must confess that im more of a prince and princess fairytale sort of sap, but i also like other movies with that deeper, sort of suspenceful type of love that you cant see too well on the surface, but once you look for it, you can in a sense. but love isnt the only thing you find there, you are right, they give you so much more to go on besides the mushy stuff, although i mostly prefer that. heehee!. they give you a lot of on the edge of your seat stuff. im sure you love those kind of movies where you cant wait to see how it turns out and you can never see whats coming around the corner. that is so cool!

 

I know that you are someone who loves fairytale romances. If I had a daughter, I'd want her to be just like you. I think it's beautiful that young women like you dream of the ideal love. That's wonderful. I'm sure you will find that love in your future.

 

The reason why I mentioned Mann's westerns and noirs featuring strong undercurrents of love was to inform gals like you that there is more than meets the eye with these films. You may have to look a little for the love, but you will more often than not find it. And it's usually a very strong love, although the male characters may not always outwardly express this love.

 

Miss Golden Rule -- P.S. So you're a Cowboy (NFL) fan? Might it interest you to know I almost had one for a step-dad. Yep. My mom dated one. I never remember his name---I can ask her again, but he was cute and she had his picture hanging up in our house for a while after they stopped seeing eachother. I tease her to this day for letting him get away because he was crazy for her.

 

Yes on the Cowboys fan part and yes on me being interested in knowing who the unlucky ex-Cowboy was. I'm not sure if you should mention your mom's old romances on the board, though. You gotta look out for mom.

 

Cashette -- Nice to see you again. Anyone who can drop names like Fausto Carmona and Brian Bruney on the TCM board draws interest from me. I'm impressed.

 

My Favorite Mets Girl -- Did you take your pills? Heck, even I'm getting nervous for you. Your brother has great taste in football squads. It's easy being a Cowboys fan right now, even in enemy territory.

 

Coop's Girl -- I'm very impressed with your loyalty to your 'Stros. Indians, eh? I'm not sure who the heck I'll be rooting for in the playoffs yet. I'm thinking Arizona and Cleveland, but I must say, I'd love to see the Cubs make some noise.

[metsfan]

Dear Scott, as if life wasn't hard enough I have to deal with the drama involving my team. I will definitely end up with ulcers and high blood pressure after the final five games. Enjoy the glorious wins the Cowboys are givin' ya and Coopsgirl have fun watching your guys play the final games of the season. Good luck to all.

[butterscotchgreer]

*Funny you should mention that!*

 

*In her apartment, nice view, overlooking the East River, Pat Neal has a work study, and it is* *jammed with pix of her and GC, newspaper headlines on GC, mementoes, etc. May not be in a* *closet, but the spirit remains the same.*

 

hey john!!

 

angie is right, that is sad but sweet about pat neal having that collection of his pics too, but somehow that doesnt surprise me one bit. i watched like five minutes of her private screenings on TCM only b/c i thought she might mention something about gary, and wouldnt you know it, right when i turned the tv on, she was talking with robert osborn about her affair with gary. angie was also right in telling me that she thinks that she is still in love with gary after all these years.

 

she told me about the bright leaves documentary, b/c i still do have that one yet, and she said you could tell that she is still in love with him. i think it shows whenever she talks about him.

[butterscotchgreer]

*I must admit, I go for the women throwing themselves at men stuff. Sorry, that's me being a guy.* *Hey, at least I'm honest. Ava Gardner and Rita Hayworth are very interesting to me, especially* *Ava.*

 

hey frankie," Oh What a Beautiful Morning, oh what a beautiful day" heehee! actually im nervous for my chemistry test, but anyway. thats okay, we all have our favorites. more power to ya frankie!!

 

*I know that you are someone who loves fairytale romances. If I had a daughter, I'd want her to be* *just like you. I think it's beautiful that young women like you dream of the ideal love. That's* *wonderful. I'm sure you will find that love in your future.*

 

im blushing... heehee!

 

*The reason why I mentioned Mann's westerns and noirs featuring strong undercurrents of love* *was to inform gals like you that there is more than meets the eye with these films. You may* *have to look a little for the love, but you will more often than not find it. And it's usually a very* *strong love, although the male characters may not always outwardly express this love.*

 

i know what you mean. my mother loves movies with just more than romance, she grew up a tom boy and never did like all the mushy sappiness. there are other great parts to a movie other than the mushy stuff, and i know that, i just happen to like the mushy stuff a little more. heeehee!

[coopsgirl]

Great stuff about Man of the West, Frank. Judging by Gary's actions toward Julie's character as you pointed out it's clear he wanted her but I don't think anything ever happened between them. Although you could also look at it like they did sleep together but him being a little standoffish towards her is his way of not leading her on any further. I still don't think there was anything between them but I see how you could see it both ways. Here's an article I found on Time's website about Mann's films. I just picked out the part about Man of the West but I'll include the link if anyone wants to read the whole article.

 

 

Most of the men in the instructively deranged Man of the West are not fit to live, period. They are a gang of outlaws led by Dock Tobin (Lee J. Cobb), a ranting, randy patriarch ? a western King Lear. Link Jones (Gary Cooper) was once a part of this gang, and Dock treated him like a son (though Cobb was 10 years younger than Cooper). In fact, this was Mann's patriarch period: four consecutive movies, in 1957-58, with a father-son relationship at their core. In three of them ? Men in War, Man of the West and God's Little Acre ? the father figure is, respectively, shell-shocked, homicidal and genially obsessive. (Only in The Tin Star is the older Henry Fonda unconditionally, paternalistically helpful to the callow sheriff played by Anthony Perkins.)

 

Like many a Mann hero with a deadly past, the Cooper character has managed to reform himself without getting strung up first. But now, through a series of credence-straining coincidences, Link has landed back with Dock's gang, and in the company of a saloon singer named Billie (sultry Julie London). Billie, whose affection for Link must remain unfulfilled because he has a wife back home, wonders how a man so righteous could have run with a gang so rancid: "You're not like them." "I was," Link replies. "There wasn't any difference at all." Explaining his youth with Dock, Link says, "He taught me killing and stealing. I didn't know any better. Then one day I grew up. There's a point where you either grow up and become a man, or ya rot like that bunch."

 

Just how rotten they are becomes clear when a gang member, Coaley (Jack Lord, another Mann villain with a Pepsodent smile), waves a knife in Billie's face and forces her to strip in front of the entire gang ? and Link. This long scene is a battle between the lurid prurience of the men in the shack (and maybe in the audience) and the proprieties of the Production Code. The undressing stops at her petticoat. Still, it packs a slow, sadistic jolt. At the time, it affronted not just the softer sensibilities of the audience but Hollywood's movie mores. From films of the '50s I can't think of a scene like it.

 

The plot justification for the stripping comes later, when Cooper and Lord engage in a brawl that lasts a harrowing 4 minutes 25 seconds. It's one of the longest fights ever in American movies, and startling in its vicious, clumsy realism. ("I never saw anything like that in my life," Dock says in stunned admiration, and for once we have to agree with him.) Link eventually strips Coaley, as Coaley had made Billie do. The message: expressions of male sexuality and male violence can be equally pernicious ? and, in movies, equally crowd-pleasing.

 

http://www.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,1223014-1,00.html

 

There was another paragraph that discussed women in Mann's westerns and how they either fell into the virgin or **** model. They didn't mention Billie from MotW however (at least I didn't see it) and even though I haven't seen any other of Mann's films, I'm willing to bet she's one of the most interesting of his female characters. I think she falls somewhere inbetween the virgin/**** type. She's not completely virtuous as she is a saloon singer who doesn't exactly seem a stranger to men, but she's also very embarassed when she has to take her clothes off in front of Dock's gang. The auther also pointed out that usually the virgin types were there to basically get the "hero" to save them and the whores were there to tempt them. Again Billie fits both these bills to a tee. Link defends her honor in the fight against Coaley and also is tempted by her flirtations.

[MissGoddess]

Wow, John, Pat Neal sounds like my kind of party girl. Her lip-loosener is brandy? Mine's champoo but both are dangerous for unlocking the gates. I bet her accent gets broader, too, right? Mine does. I can't stand that Warner's didn't use your interview with her for a Fountainhead documentary!! I hope you can find a way to squeeze some of it in somewhere. When will people learn how important it is to share this kind of stuff---and to get it recorded while there are still those around who were there.

 

I wish the Academy would give Miss Neal an honorary gimcrack --- she has to be one of the gutsiest women in the business. Or have they done so already?

[MissGoddess]

Good pix from *Good Sam* are hard to come by, thanks Angie!!! They are all beautiful, in fact.

[MissGoddess]

Frank - I couldn't stop laughing at the Some Came Running quotes, I mean the last one by Dean Martin's "Bama". I know he's being mean but he just has me rolling every time I see him in that movie. By the way, I've read the book it's based on---what an interminable read that was---and apparently Martha Hyer's character "Gwen" had had a relationship that turned her sour but she was much more sexual, though repressed, than Hyer came across. In fact, one scene in the book showed her to possess a rather perverse sense of humor. At least in the movie her character is easier to understand. In the book she's almost too complicated, I can't put a finger on what makes her tick and so in the end, I just found her too annoying. And Ginnie seems to be combination of a couple of characters. The ending, as you may know, is not the same as the book's.

 

Also, Bama does call women like Ginnie "pigs" all through the book, but he's a lot meaner than he comes across with Dean in the part. At first I thought "pig" might have been a substitute for a stronger word used in the novel but it's not. It still sounds vicious, though, doesn't it?

 

Sorry guys for getting off topic, but I love this movie too (for Frank, my eyes are always on him but I have to admit that Dean and McLaine steal the show).

[MissGoddess]

Thanks for that "Link" on Mann of the West, Angie. It's coincidental I just added a couple of links to a thread of mine in the Westerns forums by the same writer. I like much of what he has to say, at least what I've read so far.

[coopsgirl]

I found the article about Mann from following one of those links you posted. I like the guy who wrote the articles too b/c he's a big MST3K fan. I don't know why it's so hard to find pics from Good Sam, I was surprised to find that one. Here's a few more I found this morning.

 

Legion of the Condemned with Fay Wray.

 

 

Best looking homeless man I've ever seen! (Meet John Doe)

 

 

Gary as a youngster trying to fish out of a horse trough. I doubt he caught anything!

 

[MissGoddess]

That picture of him as a boy fishing has an adorable, "Huck Finn" quality to it.

[coopsgirl]

Aw, he does look like Huck Finn there. It cracked me up that he has his little basket for his fish even though I doubt he caught anything in that particular outing.

[butterscotchgreer]

wow, i would have never thought that he looked like huck finn, but he does! heehee! he was such a cute huck finn/ homeless man!

[butterscotchgreer]

guys i just realized that we have hit the 5000 reply point!!! yay!!!

[coopsgirl]

AWESOME!!!! Gary would be so proud.

[butterscotchgreer]

i wonder ifthere have been any otherthread to match that number. heehee!

[MissGoddess]

*I totally missed that 5,000 posts milestone!*

 

[coopsgirl]

Here's a pic from Along Came Jones.

 

 

Here's an adorable pic of him with a dog.

 

 

Bengal Lancer

 

 

Cowboy and the Lady

 

 

[CoopsGal]

Wow, what a milestone, you guys!

 

 

[CoopsGal]

Did I scare you off? I hope not. I guess you're recharging.

 

 

Scare me? Hardly. It's been difficult to stay away from your stimulating conversations, Mr. Grimes! Recharging is the perfect word for it.

 

I'm trying to catch up on some much needed sleep! Between the story Angie and I have going, house-work and trying my best to keep up the speed of this monsterous growing thread...I'd predict I'll be recharging til the end of winter! But I'll pop in once in a while and contribute some of my knowledge and personal views on certain topics pertaining this incredible man. Though Angie, John, Theresa, April, and Dan will keep you pretty well occupied in my abesence.

 

 

I'm glad you're gentle. I'm gonna hold you to that. By the way, you don't think the combination of hopeless romantic and femme fatale is a deadly mix, do you? It seems like a perfect plan.

 

 

It is a deadly mix, Mr. Grimes...to those who don't know what they're doing. You seem to be wise; so I'm sure you'll have no difficulty in handling the two brilliantly and might I add...cautiously?