Caddyshack is Classic

[cinemabuff64]

I not only agree w/ what you say, I applaud it.Classic to me is something that should always be remembered as an example for all that follows.Not only does that include Jeannette and Nelson, Fred and Ginger,Gable and Harlow but Powell and Loy, Hepburn and Tracy,even Doris Day and Rock Hudson (I know some will disagree on this one), are you following the flow here? in no way or form does Rodney Dangerfield even begin to fit in with the likes of these......So please leave Caddyshack for that other supposed channel for classic movies that is slowly turning into a 70's nad 80's movie channel.

[deeanddaisy666]

Well said, cinemabuff64 and daddysprimadonna.

 

I for one am glad I am old, since I remember the good stuff and will most likely not be here when the crap that is passing for 'classic' on TCM really IS classic in 30 years.

 

The movies I love will, by then, be...how did someone here put it?...dated. And most likely scoffed at by the majority on the TCM messageboard of 2036.

 

I understand the devil wears Prada, but I wonder if he/she shows Warren William films?

[Chipper]

Stoneyburke, you don't have to be old to enjoy the 'classics' (oops there's that word again). I started watching those glorious B&W films beginning on TNT when I was about 15 or 16 and am still enjoying them at 32 (and TNT or TCM didn't even have to pander to get me to watch). If TCM ever reaches that day when there are more current films than the old great B&W films of the 30s and 40s, then I'll be ready. I recently catalogued my collection and I'm at 362 tapes (with about 4-5 films per tape) that I've recorded from TNT, AMC, TCM, FMC and Encore.

[MGMWBRKO]

Caddyshack is a "Classic" for the cable generation and should be included in the TCM programming mix. I have been a part of the TCM Programming staff since it's inception and we have always included new movies in our schedules. Within our first few months on the air we ran "The Hunger", "Diner", "Fame", "Poltergeist" and others. Trust me. New movies are used as entry point to get younger viewers interested in Classic Cinema, simple as that.

[inglis]

Right On Larry !

[deeanddaisy666]

Really? Trust you?

 

Um.........no.

 

What you say has no validity. I've been here for two and a half years and other than a few trolls, everyone is quite intelligent, whether young or old. We have taste, vision, and the brains to know good films from bad.

 

The 'cable' generation? Who is that pray tell? I am old and still consider myself part of the 'cable' generation. I found cable in the 1980s and have not been without it.

 

Is Caddyshack now or will it EVER be classic to me or to those here who value the true classics? No. We here can tell duplicity when we see it, and the attempt to foist off Caddyshack as 'classic' is mendacity, sir.

 

Are you really part of the staff at TCM? Well, la-di-dah and heaven help us all.

 

Simple as that? No, nothing is simple, least of all the emotional feelings between a person and their perception of art. Classic film is, after all, art.

 

Caddyshack is schlock. Money making (at least, I think it made money) schlock.

 

If you are really part of the TCM staff, MGMWBRKO, that explains a lot. If you are a troll, try again.

 

Chipper...no, I didn't mean to imply that only the old enjoyed the classics. Far from it. I was just opining that I am glad I will be dead when, in 30 years, the drek that is Caddyshack really WILL be a classic, in terms of its age. Then again, perhaps there will be those in 2036 who will come here and make me proud by writing curmudgeonly posts declaring Caddyshack to be the offal it is.

[sweetbabykmd]

lzcutter do you work for TCM in some capacity? You seem to know a lot of their inside business.

[movieman1957]

stoneyburke:

 

I don't often agree with you on this topic but I do here. "Caddyshack" to me is not even funny much less a classic. Though posters may have different opinions on scheduling we all share a love of classic movies. That's what makes this site so interesting. I too have doubts about this poster. I can't imagine that TCM would let anyone other than "tcmprogrammer" speak on their behalf.

 

lzcutter:

 

Your posts are, as always, eloquently and calmly put.

[lzcutter]

lzcutter do you work for TCM in some capacity? You seem to know a lot of their inside business. >>

 

Sweetbaby,

 

While I don't work for TCM, I work in the "biz" as well as being an archivist, preservationist and an rudimentary film historian.

[lzcutter]

lzcutter:

 

Your posts are, as always, eloquently and calmly put. >>

 

Movieman,

 

Thanks for the compliment. While I don't consider Caddyshack a classic, TCM does take a big tent approach to its scheduling and while it may not be to everyone's liking, they are trying to make the channel work for everyone.

 

It's too bad that we are such a niche market. Perhaps if TCM had the viewership of other, bigger channels there would be less emphasis on the big tent approach. But classic films are a niche market and perhaps there aren't as many of us out here watching as we tend to think.

[Chipper]

Isn't cable supposed to be about niche markets, though? Some of us have complained that TCM seems to be showing more current movies and have had a few point out, by brandishing old TCM schedules, that that isn't the case, but with TCM's big tent approach it seems that in the past few months it's trying too hard to be all things to all people. With the talk of the incoming Rob Zombie, reality show pilots given the green light, Animi, etc. it seems that they're throwing anything against the wall to see what'll stick. I love TCM and as long as half their schedule is still devoted to my favorite period of the 30's and 40's, I'll keep watching.

[deeanddaisy666]

lzcutter, you are correct.

 

For a moment there, I thought movieman was talking to me and then saw your name!! Calm........me? LOL, of course not. Hey, that's why they call it horse racing.

 

As to the niche market...this was the downfall of early cable, imo. I remember a station, some station, that showed the Burns and Allen Show and even the Molly Goldberg show. I had never seen either and loved them to pieces. However, as time marched on, both disappeared, replaced by AHEM original programming.

 

This has been the bane of the niche market and the niche stations, the original programming. AMC now has shows that stink to high heaven, under the guise of original programming. Remember Remember WENN? That was GOOD original programming, and how long ago was THAT on?

 

Remember, the crapola that is reality television started out as original programming. It took the place of dramas and comedies that required real writers who were paid real money -- remember? It was in the interest of what the corporations do so well...downsizing...that REALITY television was invented.

 

No writers (hmmm, did Richard on Survivor and his massive backside come into play during a writer's strike?), an idiot public that will expose their backsides if so requested in the interest of their 15 minutes of fame, a quick buck, and no overhead since all the money is going to the lawyers who draft the waiver documents that these idiots sign.

 

That's it, period the end. We here are a niche market. Our days are numbered. All protests to the contrary, TCM (heck, even Ted Turner was more noble than the corporation he sold out to) will eventually do anything for a quick buck, and our collective backsides (not exposed, thank you) will be flapping in the wind, betrayed by a corporation that will do anything to remain competitive. Hell, the company I work for is outsourcing to India, China and Russia. You do the math on TCM.

 

In the meanwhile, tape your b/w movies, everyone, since there are still some gems to be had (although not as much as there were 2-1/2 years ago), enjoy what you can if you still watch the station, turn off the channel during the prime time drek of Sonny and Cher, Anime, Rodney Dangerfield, and the Reality crap, and bid TCM a fond adieu when they finally include commercials.

 

Because, make no mistake about it, they WILL include commercials some day soon. Mark my words.

 

But hey, we all met each other via this wonderfully uncensored message board (you should SEE the havoc I am creating on TWoP after the recent rape scene on Rescue Me!), so it wasn't a completely bad trip, now was it? For that, and their wonderful, glorious movies of the past 2-1/2 years, I thank you all and you too TCM.

[lzcutter]

We here are a niche market. Our days are numbered. All protests to the contrary, TCM (heck, even Ted Turner was more noble than the corporation he sold out to) will eventually do anything for a quick buck,>>

 

Stoney,

 

While we agree on TCM being a niche market, I know that we don't agree on the future of TCM but then if everybody agreed on everything this board would not be as lively!.

[Chipper]

When all things Turner went TimeWarner, that was the beginning of the slide. It took about 4 or 5 years, but the Atlanta Braves, my favorite baseball team, have finally landed in last place in their division because TimeWarner has refused to meet salaries and trade for other players. The Braves now are left with mostly rookies and a few veterans who are over that 30 age mark and TimeWarner now is trying to sell them to another huge corporation. When TCM hit the airwaves, I seem to recall Ted Turner, when asked how TCM could survive without ads, he said something to the effect that since he owned the vast MGM, Warner and RKO libraries, it cost relatively very little to put the station on the air. If that's the case why are they worried that the 18-44 year old demo isn't tuning in? Am I in such a minority here in my 30's?

[deeanddaisy666]

Isn't cable supposed to be about niche markets, though?

 

It was, yes Chipper. Remember the Country Channel? Heck, they've bastardized it so much that I don't even remember the call letters anymore. At any rate, it is now NOTHING related to country, I remember how they went about distancing themself from the IDEA that they were connected to country.

 

As I said in my yadayada post, there was a delightful niche channel in the 1980s that showed Burns and Allen and even Molly Goldberg. I don't know if they're now the SPEED channel or the Ozzy Osborne channel or whatever they are now, but their original programming doesn't exist.

 

What is most amusing is that cable now has more channels on it than there are stars in the sky, YET they are for the most part moronic and repetitive. Heck, there was even a channel that had roller derby on it all the time, and I remember thinking at the time, who watches this stuff? Well, now I say that to most of the channels on cable.

 

I get the very basic least invasive cable just to get the shows I like the most. I dread the day that I have to get Direct TV or the DISH in order to get FX or TCM or TNT. But that day may come, these channels may someday be escalated to premium status. Which is bull.

 

But back to your quesiton...I do go on, don't I? Cable WAS about niche markets. I remember finding Nick at Nite and then TV Land. Now these stations have ORIGINAL programming. In order to be part of the herd, these lovely little stations could NOT just appeal to a small base of fans, they have to be everything to everyone.

 

You must of course remember A&E? A wonderful, glorious niche channel that, well, showed programs that had art AND entertainment. Now it has C&C - crap and crap. Ditto on all the other channels that...no surprise...the corporations bought up. Westinghouse bought this one, Rainbow bought another, Time Warner bought a third, and so it went. The pinheads behind ABC - Disney - sanitized whatever stations they bought, and whomever bought A&E (also TLC, TDC and THC, if I am not incorrect) brought in.....how else can I put it.....CRAP. I'll never forget when they announced one of their very first REALISTIC documentaries on A&E...and examination of the history of UNDERWEAR. I kid you not.

 

And who can forget when the History Channel...a wonderful channel...brought in that loudmouth idiot military guy?

 

*sigh*

 

I'll shut up now. I decry the evolution of cable as I decry the evolution of corporate America. But hey, I'm old, what do I know, and not too many people agree with me.

 

And so it goes.

 

While I was going on, Chipper, I didn't see your post. See, you make my point. Are you in the minority for a person in your 30s? It would seem so. But perhaps people in their 30s and 40s and even 50s, such as very old me, just give up, realizing that it is useless to rail against the Time Warners and the Rupert Murdochs of the world. Sad, but true.

[lzcutter]

I seem to recall Ted Turner, when asked how TCM could survive without ads, he said something to the effect that since he owned the vast MGM, Warner and RKO libraries, it cost relatively very little to put the station on the air.>>

 

That was likely at the time when TCM, and all the other channels, had a tape based server. The majority of the film library that Ted owned was already on tape so that cost was relatively low.

 

However, with the changes in technology, the Hi-Def revolution and the conversion of broadcast channels to digital, TCM had to abandon its tape based server and library of tapes and convert to a digital server. All the films in the library have to be converted from videotape to a digital format that the server can run. This is a big and costly conversion and does not happen quickly. TCM is not the only cable station faced with this. Every network and cable channel either has or is converting to digital servers.

 

So, in the early years, the cost of running TCM was relatively low versus today with the costs of converting their library to digital, they also produce more original programming documentaries than they did ten years ago Ten years ago, Turner Original Pictures and TNT carried the cost burden of those wonderful documentaries about the stars and directors. With the demise of TOP, TCM now carries the burden of those costs (usually in partnership with Warners Bros or another company). They also produce more bumpers, more advertising and they try to stay one or two steps ahead of the Fox Movie Channel (which now markets itself as uncut, commercial free, and letterboxed).

 

So, the landscape for TCM has changed dramatically since Ted Turner started the channel and TCM is trying to adapt to that changing landscape.

 

Do they stumble? Sure. Everybody has in this changing times. But they also try to stay true to their old viewers while seeking new viewers because TCM is after all a business.

 

From what I saw on the Fox Movie Channel last night, they are starting to market and look more like TCM than they were a year ago so they are competing with TCM for that same niche market that we inhabit.

 

I tend to believe that TCM won't make the same mistakes as AMC did when TCM was the new kid on the block. They've been there, done that and hopefully learned from AMC's mistakes.

 

I could be wrong. Or I could be right. We'll have to wait and see, I guess.

[Chipper]

Thanks, lzcutter, I knew there HAD to be a reason why, even though there are no commercials, Robert Osborne had to have a reason to implore us to buy this or that at the end of every movie, why the art deco retro feel of the studio, ads, graphics, etc. has slowly seemed to change to a retro 60s and 70s vibe and few movies from the 90s have creeped in: as you stated below, they need the money now to run all these movies and who do the idiotic "suits" think has the most money? Teens and twentysomethings! Go figure! I was broke in my twenties!!

[lzcutter]

why the art deco retro feel of the studio, ads, graphics, etc. has slowly seemed to change to a retro 60s and 70s vibe>>

 

It could also be that TCM is trying to attract the last generation that actually went to the movies every weekend not for the special effects, the sex, the gore or the noise but for the story. That would be the generation that came of age in the early to mid-1970s. We grew up on classic films on the Million Dollar Movies, the three networks had at least four Night at the Movies througout the week, there were art houses, revival houses, film societies and the great stars of the Studio Era were on television on variety shows, drama shows, talking with Johnny Carson, Dick Cavett and David Frost.

 

Movie demographics and studio thinking changed with the advent of Jaws and Star Wars. Suddenly opening weekend and blockbuster summer movies became the trend. As movies were marketed more and more to teenagers and twentysomethings, the last generation that enjoyed going to the movies and wanted to go to the movies began staying home.

 

There's many more options for how to spend your time these days then there were when many of us of a certain age were younger. Ipods, downloading, the internet, video games, cable, movies, etc have all helped fracture the marketplace as never before.

 

<>

 

Hopefully the "suits" also realize that TCM also attracts viewers who really do have the money (ie the generation that is 45 and older). We love good stories, we love the movies, we love classic films and we love films from the 60s and 70s. The kids are grown, through college (or about to be), have succesful careers or are happily retired.

 

Like I say, only time will tell....

[movieman1957]

Cable channels seem to run from their original setup. A&E isn't Arts and Entertainment anymore than TLC is still The Learning Channel. AMC doesn't even refer to themselves as American Movie Classics anymore do they? Heck, it took a lawsuit to bring them back to some semblance of what they were. Comparatively TCM is closer to its original setup than a lot of other stations.

 

We seem to be increasingly niche. I guess we have a level of expectation that the rest of the viewing public doesn't. Even though we are the minority we are the better for it.

[filmlover]

I remember the changeover of channels awhile back with History Channel and Arts & Entertainment modifying their look. I think A&E changed their name to The Art of Entertainment. I know I didn't like the change because they went from being like PBS to an E-Channel. But I still have faith in TCM. (Except I would never call Caddyshack a classic, but that's Bickle's personal view.)

 

As to TCM experimenting a bit, I was just thinking that if I owned TCM, I don't think I would just want the same old films programmed 24 hours a day. I would probably feel like I would want to do something creative, like the documentaries, because at least that is fresh. I doubt I would ever go with Rob Zombie and am sure I would never do the two shows they have talked about, but I know I would feel stagnant if I didn't do something new. And if I was trying to attract younger viewers because I would like them to enjoy the old movies, too, I might try to catch their eye with some film they do know. And, in thinking about it, that is what TCM is doing.

 

Hey, in addition to our TCM Programming Challenges, maybe we should try doing a challenge of a Mission Statement of what we would want to accomplish with TCM if we owned it and, importantly, a detailed written explanation of HOW we would accomplish our goals. We would have to put up or shut up, as they say.

[movieman1957]

One of the things I really like that TCM does are the "themes." Most of the movie channels don't do that and the one or two that do have only done it, it seems, in TCM's footsteps.

 

I know some think they have been overdone but usually they are well thought out and clever. The connections between movies can be pretty illuminating. The prospect of seeing multiple movies by an artist are pretty unique to TCM. The documentaries and even their short tributes can help, for me, add a lot of perspective.

[daddysprimadonna]

Regarding most of the cable channels and their "bait and switch" ploy-you got that right! I get mad everytime I remember what the Disney Channel did-I began watching when they showed reruns of those wonderful old black-and-white TV shows(ie "Davy Crockett"), "The Wonderful World Of Disney",the original Mickey Mouse Club, and great old Disney movies that you couldn't see anywhere else(and you can't anymore,I hope they'll release "Ballerina" with Mette Honningen and Kirsten Simone someday before I die! ),and then they trashed all that and began showing silly shows aimed at the so-called "tween" demographic.

 

Why couldn't they at least have continued to show the old stuff late at night,the "Disney Vault",as their supposed intended audience would probably be in bed by then? And what made them think that today's "tweens" wouldn't appreciate movies like "Ballerina"-it was made partly for that age group back in 1963 or whatever the year was. They must think that that age group is dumber these days than it was back then!

[nsallieharding]

If I had my own local TV station the way that Ted Turner had in the 80's with TBS, I would run old PBS Masterpiece Theatre shows from the 70's and 80's during the week along with a evening movie from the 60's and 70's that would have the same kind of class. After that I would have a Late Show with campy cult status for the night crowd. After the Late Show I would have 50's TV shows like Red Skeleton, Jack Benny and The Honey Mooners. Starting on Friday at 8:00pm I would have back to back Sci-Fi and Horror movies and TV shows. Then on Sunday I would have Family stuff like G rated movies.

[vecchiolarry]

OMG GarboManiac,

 

It's back just as we feared -- DOSFAN DORK and his Osmonds. They're everywhere, they're everywhere and it's all my fault....... I woke the snoozing dozey dipstick!!!!!

 

I know Ann Landers would prescribe 40 lashes with a wet noodle but you all want me lambasted with a lead pipe.

 

Soorrry!!!!!!!!!

 

Larry

[TOOMANYNOTES]

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