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I Saw A Deadhead Sticker on a Cadillac-- Don't Look Back


Princess of Tap
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Don't be smug. A lot of Motown's best stuff came after it moved to L.A.

 

I certainly can't agree with THAT.  You're obviously responding out of a place of hurt feelings.  But you shouldn't.

 

You've every right to like what you like and apologize to NOBODY for it, as do I.

 

But just remember, your opinion ISN'T the quitessential opinion, as is mine also.   ;)

 

Sepiatone

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I certainly can't agree with THAT.  You're obviously responding out of a place of hurt feelings.  But you shouldn't.

 

You've every right to like what you like and apologize to NOBODY for it, as do I.

 

But just remember, your opinion ISN'T the quitessential opinion, as is mine also.   ;)

 

Sepiatone

Among my Top 4.000 songs there are a far greater number of Motown songs than Philly songs.

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Among my Top 4.000 songs there are a far greater number of Motown songs than Philly songs.

 

In my opinion the real black soul music came out of Muscle Shoals, Stax, Chicago, and King records in Cincinnati Ohio.

 

Aside from a couple acts that were really out there doing what they wanted to do, Motown was a very plastic black pop institution designed primarily to get black acts into the mainstream and as enjoyment for the white top 40 primarily.

 

The Music, the performances and the singing was very good at Motown, but it's not what I call real soul music--

 

The Great Soul artists are James Brown, Aretha Franklin, Wilson Pickett, Otis Redding, Percy Sledge, Curtis Mayfield , Rufus Thomas,Joe Tex, Barry White, Isaac Hayes, Sam & Dave et al --

 

there were people at Motown who could certainly sing this kind of music, if they hadn't been so restrained by Berry Gordy's desire to assimulate and for success in the white mainstream Top 40.

 

Motown had goals like being the first top black performers from their kind of music to play the Copacabana, or to be on The Ed Sullivan Show, or to be nominated for an Academy Award etc.

 

I always recall with such disdain how Berry Gordy kicked Marvin Gaye all the way up and all the way down against What's going on and Mercy Mercy Me the ecology. He didn't want that kind of stuff and he certainly didn't want anything that might be slightly controversial. And this was after Sgt pepper and all that stuff. But Marvin Gaye got what he wanted this time and I think Smokey Robinson even supported him.

 

Berry Gordy selected Diana Ross over so many other people, even though she didn't sing very well, and was only really passable after plastic surgery. And Smokey Robinson had to coach her on everything she ever recorded it.

 

But Gordy knew that Diana Ross had the kind of attitude, the kind of Spirit and the kind of cold ambition that it took to assimilate into the mainstream.

 

Not all black artists necessarily wanted to be accepted by white audiences or to have to sing in a style that catered primarily to white people.

 

There were other singers who were better than Ross was at Motown. But they never would have had What it Took to go as far as she went especially in terms of the drive and ambition that led her to being nominated for an Academy Award.

 

Berry Gordy could see in Diana Ross the same kind of blind ambition that he had - - A person who would do anything to succeed--and in that Ross was a lot like a Joan Crawford or Barbara Stanwyck- type personality.

 

Motown is full of these sad stories about people whose careers were thwarted, who had great talent, but who couldn't really get with the same goals that Berry Gordy had.

 

The two women that I recall the most - - were the sad stories about Mary Wells and Florence Ballard.

 

And everybody loves that story about how Motown covered Gladys Knight's I Heard it Through the Grapevine, as it was rising up the charts, so that Gordy's brother-in-law, Marvin Gaye, could have a much-needed number one hit, I Heard it Through the Grapevine.

 

Gladys Knight came from a different kind of background than some of the others and had a different kind of perspective, so she picked up her Marbles and her great singing voice and went elsewhere. She did just fine in life later on.

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In my opinion the real black soul music came out of Muscle Shoals, Stax, Chicago, and King records in Cincinnati Ohio.

 

Aside from a couple acts that were really out there doing what they wanted to do, Motown was a very plastic black pop institution designed primarily to get black acts into the mainstream and as enjoyment for the white top 40 primarily.

 

The Music, the performances and the singing was very good at Motown, but it's not what I call real soul music--

 

The Great Soul artists are James Brown, Aretha Franklin, Wilson Pickett, Otis Redding, Percy Sledge, Curtis Mayfield , Rufus Thomas,Joe Tex, Barry White, Isaac Hayes, Sam & Dave et al --

 

there were people at Motown who could certainly sing this kind of music, if they hadn't been so restrained by Berry Gordy's desire to assimulate and for success in the white mainstream Top 40.

 

Motown had goals like being the first top black performers from their kind of music to play the Copacabana, or to be on The Ed Sullivan Show, or to be nominated for an Academy Award etc.

 

I always recall with such disdain how Berry Gordy kicked Marvin Gaye all the way up and all the way down against What's going on and Mercy Mercy Me the ecology. He didn't want that kind of stuff and he certainly didn't want anything that might be slightly controversial. And this was after Sgt pepper and all that stuff. But Marvin Gaye got what he wanted this time and I think Smokey Robinson even supported him.

 

Berry Gordy selected Diana Ross over so many other people, even though she didn't sing very well, and was only really passable after plastic surgery. And Smokey Robinson had to coach her on everything she ever recorded it.

 

But Gordy knew that Diana Ross had the kind of attitude, the kind of Spirit and the kind of cold ambition that it took to assimilate into the mainstream.

 

Not all black artists necessarily wanted to be accepted by white audiences or to have to sing in a style that catered primarily to white people.

 

There were other singers who were better than Ross was at Motown. But they never would have had What it Took to go as far as she went especially in terms of the drive and ambition that led her to being nominated for an Academy Award.

 

Berry Gordy could see in Diana Ross the same kind of blind ambition that he had - - A person who would do anything to succeed--and in that Ross was a lot like a Joan Crawford or Barbara Stanwyck- type personality.

 

Motown is full of these sad stories about people whose careers were thwarted, who had great talent, but who couldn't really get with the same goals that Berry Gordy had.

 

The two women that I recall the most - - were the sad stories about Mary Wells and Florence Ballard.

 

And everybody loves that story about how Motown covered Gladys Knight's I Heard it Through the Grapevine, as it was rising up the charts, so that Gordy's brother-in-law, Marvin Gaye, could have a much-needed number one hit, I Heard it Through the Grapevine.

 

Gladys Knight came from a different kind of background than some of the others and had a different kind of perspective, so she picked up her Marbles and her great singing voice and went elsewhere. She did just fine in life later on.

Much of what you are saying is true, but I always trust my ears, and I am a white guy who got into black music. The fact that I like Motown better than any of the artists you listed (except for Curtis Mayfield, who is great) may be a testament to my whiteness. The Philly stuff was also sort of geared toward white audiences. But don't tell me that blacks didn't like the Temps, the Tops, Gladys, Martha, Stevie, etc.

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I've been listening to a lot of rockabilly lately, and I've concluded that the best pure rockabilly artist ever was Carl Perkins. Elvis was doing rockabilly before he got real big, and doing it well, but Perkins was the king of that genre. Listen to his "Dixie Fried", which is not well-known, or "Honey Don't", which is..

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I've been listening to a lot of rockabilly lately, and I've concluded that the best pure rockabilly artist ever was Carl Perkins. Elvis was doing rockabilly before he got real big, and doing it well, but Perkins was the king of that genre. Listen to his "Dixie Fried", which is not well-known, or "Honey Don't", which is..

Dixie Fried was the first Carl Perkins record I ever had; after he would introduce Blue Suede Shoes on The Ed Sullivan Show and had the accident, we didn't hear too much about him.

 

Last week I saw the rerun on PBS of the Carl Perkins Showtime special that he did more than 30 years ago with George Harrison, Eric Clapton and Ringo Starr.

 

It was amazing at his age how good he was. I particularly liked one point where they were getting ready to do a number and George didn't know what the key was and he kept on saying--"what key, what key".

 

Dave Edmunds and Rosanne Cash were also featured.

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Dixie Fried was the first Carl Perkins record I ever had; after he would introduce Blue Suede Shoes on The Ed Sullivan Show and had the accident, we didn't hear too much about him.

 

Last week I saw the rerun on PBS of the Carl Perkins Showtime special that he did more than 30 years ago with George Harrison, Eric Clapton and Ringo Starr.

 

It was amazing at his age how good he was. I particularly liked one point where they were getting ready to do a number and George didn't know what the key was and he kept on saying--"what key, what key".

 

Dave Edmunds and Rosanne Cash were also featured.

 

I remember that special.  I liked when he had Harrison, Edmonds and Clapton seated behind him and announced, "I'm here conducting a class at GUITAR SCHOOL."  or something like that.

 

One of the best gifts my stepsister Gloria gave me, besides my first guitar lessons, was her Carl Perkins SUN 45's, including "Dixie Fried" .

 

Sepiatone

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  • 2 weeks later...

It's on their  Waiting For The Sun"  LP and one of THREE on that album that I really liked.

 

The others were:

 

MY WILD LOVE  and...

 

FIVE TO ONE

 

The rest of the LP is good, don't get me wrong.  But those are the tracks I wore out the most.

 

 

Sepiatone

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Holy ****. How could a Doors' fan miss all that Lizard King

stuff. I haven't listened to that album in a while, but it's

pretty good, despite, not because of, that LZ junk. I

always liked Love Street. Seemed like the perfect 1968

summer time hippie tune. La la la la la.

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It's on their  Waiting For The Sun"  LP and one of THREE on that album that I really liked.

 

The others were:

 

MY WILD LOVE  and...

 

FIVE TO ONE

 

The rest of the LP is good, don't get me wrong.  But those are the tracks I wore out the most.

 

 

Sepiatone

I'm sure I must have listened to that LP all the way through at some point. One of my college friends was a REAL Doors' fanatic. I must have been stoned when that song came on.

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Holy ****. How could a Doors' fan miss all that Lizard King

stuff. I haven't listened to that album in a while, but it's

pretty good, despite, not because of, that LZ junk. I

always liked Love Street. Seemed like the perfect 1968

summer time hippie tune. La la la la la.

I think their two best LPs, beginning to end, were their first LP and "Morrison Hotel".

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I think their two best LPs, beginning to end, were their first LP and "Morrison Hotel".

I only have two of their LPs--Waiting for the Sun and

The Soft Parade. I always thought I would go back when

I had more dough and buy many of the albums I missed

back in the day, but I haven't done that in most cases.

Just not enough spare time.

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I only have two of their LPs--Waiting for the Sun and

The Soft Parade. I always thought I would go back when

I had more dough and buy many of the albums I missed

back in the day, but I haven't done that in most cases.

Just not enough spare time.

 

I always thought The Soft Parade was their weakest album. I like the first album, Waiting for the Sun and Morrison Hotel  the most.

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My late-in-life discoveries of songs I should have known years ago continue. I've always been a Doors fan, and I thought I knew all their stuff, but somehow I missed "Not to Touch the Earth", which I just discovered, and which has vaulted into my Doors' top ten.

 

Being a tap dancer I always listen to the drummer to judge the group in general. The drummer sets the pace and the style of a rock group.

 

I've never heard a better drummer in any group than John Densmore.

Also, I've never heard a lot of discussion about him as a drummer.

 

Everytime I hear a Doors record on the car radio, I'm just amazed at what he's got.

 

Has he gotten the recognition that he deserves as a rock drummer?

 

It seems like for drummers the flashy ones are always the ones that people talk about, but they're not really the ones who support a group properly. You gotta be willing to do what's best for the group, even if that means subordinating your flashier skills and not just to be a show-off.

 

That's probably why Ringo Starr is so denigrated among some people and not considered to be a great drummer. Because he did what was required to make the group look good, not what was required to make him look outstanding. And I'd say the same thing about Charlie Watts.

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Has he gotten the recognition that he deserves as a rock drummer?

 

The Doors reputation among critics and musicians has drastically waxed and waned over the years. There were periods when their back catalog albums were selling better than nearly every other 60's group except the Beatles or the Stones, but then there were periods when every article I would read would blast the "amateur" quality of the musicians or the "pretentious ramblings" of the lyrics. I think generally Densmore is well regarded among that same group that you mention (Ringo, Charlie Watts) of terrific functional drummers that served the song without striving for center stage, or at least not often.

 

The most frequently cited "great" drummers were either madcap untrained prodigies like Keith Moon, or people like John Bonham of Led Zeppelin or Neal Peart of Rush, which are both bands that leave ample room for showy drum solos, and most of their albums leave at least one track to serve as a drum showcase. It was interesting reading about Moon in the two books on the Who I read in the last couple of years, about how many professional drummers listen to him and can't figure out what he's doing or why, because it goes against so many trained techniques, and yet even they admit that, for this song or that song, what Moon did worked. In Pete Townshend's auotbiography, he talked about the frequent comparisons every British group got to the Beatles in the 60's, and Pete said that the Beatles were 4 brilliant songwriters and musicians who came together and worked as one for the benefit of the song (at least in the early years), whereas the Who were 4 musicians who were each trying to outdo each other by being the loudest or the most in-your-face, and that for some reason, with them, it worked out okay (usually).

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I always thought The Soft Parade was their weakest album. I like the first album, Waiting for the Sun and Morrison Hotel  the most.

I think that's the general consensus. The Doors' articles I have read

over the years seem to not think very much of that album. I haven't

listened to it in years, so I won't comment. Maybe trained musicians

appreciate the steady, set the rhythm drumming of folks like Ringo,

but untrained dopes like me like Moon, both for his unusual sound

and his crazy antics. The one seemed to go with the other.

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Maybe trained musicians appreciate the steady, set the rhythm drumming of folks like Ringo, but untrained dopes like me like Moon, both for his unusual sound and his crazy antics. The one seemed to go with the other.

 

Moon is my favorite drummer. I even like watching him drum, especially in the post-Tommy days when his drum kit grew to ridiculous sizes and he was all over the thing, always with his goofy grin and wide eyes.

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Moon is my favorite drummer. I even like watching him drum, especially in the post-Tommy days when his drum kit grew to ridiculous sizes and he was all over the thing, always with his goofy grin and wide eyes.

 

 

I always heard such nice things about him in terms of all he did to help Brian Wilson establish Pet Sounds here and abroad. Keith was crazy about The Beach Boys music and some said that he would have been happy joining that group. LOL

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I think that's the general consensus. The Doors' articles I have read

over the years seem to not think very much of that album. I haven't

listened to it in years, so I won't comment. Maybe trained musicians

appreciate the steady, set the rhythm drumming of folks like Ringo,

but untrained dopes like me like Moon, both for his unusual sound

and his crazy antics. The one seemed to go with the other.

 

Was Keith Moon the one who had the original idea to tear up the equipment and did they set it on fire too--or was that just Arthur Brown?

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Moon is my favorite drummer. I even like watching him drum, especially in the post-Tommy days when his drum kit grew to ridiculous sizes and he was all over the thing, always with his goofy grin and wide eyes.

 

MITCH MITCHELL was (and is) still my favorite drummer from that time.  Followed by GINGER BAKER  and SPIRIT'S  ED CASSIDY.  No reflection on Moon.  He was great, but I liked the others a bit more.

 

 

Sepiatone

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Being a tap dancer I always listen to the drummer to judge the group in general. The drummer sets the pace and the style of a rock group.

 

I've never heard a better drummer in any group than John Densmore.

Also, I've never heard a lot of discussion about him as a drummer.

 

Everytime I hear a Doors record on the car radio, I'm just amazed at what he's got.

 

Has he gotten the recognition that he deserves as a rock drummer?

 

It seems like for drummers the flashy ones are always the ones that people talk about, but they're not really the ones who support a group properly. You gotta be willing to do what's best for the group, even if that means subordinating your flashier skills and not just to be a show-off.

 

That's probably why Ringo Starr is so denigrated among some people and not considered to be a great drummer. Because he did what was required to make the group look good, not what was required to make him look outstanding. And I'd say the same thing about Charlie Watts.

Ray Manzarek was the only Doors' instrumentalist who was really thought of highly. Incidentally, there is a product for seniors which is being advertised on TV which sounds as if it's called "Manzarek"..

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I only have two of their LPs--Waiting for the Sun and

The Soft Parade. I always thought I would go back when

I had more dough and buy many of the albums I missed

back in the day, but I haven't done that in most cases.

Just not enough spare time.

Well, buy them now. As I have found. It's never too late to catch up.

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Was Keith Moon the one who had the original idea to tear up the equipment and did they set it on fire too--or was that just Arthur Brown?

 

No, that started with Pete Townshend, who threw a fit (he had an awful hair-trigger temper). Pete liked to jump around a lot on stage, and during one gig, the ceiling was very low. He jumped and the neck of his guitar went through the ceiling. He got angry when people laughed, so he proceeded to smash his guitar into his amp. People liked it, so he did it at another show, and Keith joined in. Then it became expected, and kept growing in spectacle. Eventually it got too expensive, so they stopped.

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